May I suggest that you delve more deeply into the dairy industry? That is all I will say on the matter, until this is moved to the Compost Heap.
How about we come back to this now that the thread has been moved.
I have actually read about the diary industry in some books I read about animal agriculture in general. Close confinement, separation of mother and offspring, and being killed when no longer economically efficient and reports of cruelty are some things I can remember. Free free to reference any pertinent thread or articles and I'll have a look though.
My argument that eggs is worse than cheese, butter and milk is because I believe the intensity of the suffering is higher in the egg industry. There are a number of arguments due to the tightness of the confinement (little space), the quality of the air for the animals being bad, reports of claws being stuck to cages, lack of access to fresh air and natural spaces. It's possible that these issues are relatively less bad in the diary industry however in any case I see that as a secondary questions.
Because, even if the diary industry is just as cruel, I would still argue that eggs are worse than cheese for the simple fact of the amount of food you get per animal. Cows are huge and chickens are tiny, so you get more food from cows per unit animal suffering. Even if we value the life of a cow, or its ability to feel pain or whatever, at double or treble that of a chicken, that remains true. To prove this wrong you would have to value the life of 1 cow, its intelligence, the acuteness of its suffering, or however you look at it, as being at least 10 times worse than that of 1 chicken. And there doesn't seem any evidence that this is the case. Therefore it you want to reduce animal suffering, avoiding eggs does it more effectively than avoiding cheese.
That doesn't make the diary industry good, it only makes it less bad.
Just by cutting out all meat, fish and eggs you have already reduced your support for animal suffering/cruelty/death by let's say 95%. Now let's say you meet someone in that position and try to convince them to stop eating cheese as well. If you are successful, you have reduced the impact of their animal suffering by another say 1%. But, if you **** them off and they think, **** this, this is a lot of hassle and vegans are such an exclusive club of preachers, I am going back to eating what I like, then you have caused a big increase in animal suffering. Much more than what you could have achieved by convincing them not to eat cheese. So, if there is even 1 chance in 100 that insisting that someone doesn't eat cheese will cause them to just give up on vegetarianism and veganism entirely (or not become vegetarian or veganism in the first place), then it can be argued as not worth the risk.
Of course the only problem with this type of argument, as we've touched on in discussion before, is that it leads us into all sorts of other dark places. You could use the same logic to justify continuing with any number of illegal or immoral activity in moderation, or apply the same logic to past struggles against slavery/sexism etc. Therefore, the alternative argument of vegan absolution is just as compelling. Especially since a deeper understanding of animal rights is probably likely to lead to a more lasting long-term success on a vegan diet.
Anyway, I'm not arguing in favour of the dairy industry. From a combination of people I've met, discussions on this forum, and my own research, I have actually in the last couple of months given up milk chocolate and cake and other sweet-type products that look obviously like they might have diary in (unless I am in a safe vegan shop or restaurant). (Actually that is a slight lie, I'd say I've reduced them by 90% but hey I'm clearly not perfect.) So, thanks to all your help and these kinds of discussions are helping me progress and be relatively more vegan.
Also, even though I can't (so far at least) be bothered to read ingredient lists and figure out which have obscure trace animal products I am eating more whole plant foods and less processed foods, which I think will also in practice make by more vegan as well as being more healthy.
So, as I say, I am not arguing in favour of the diary industry. This is a question not about where to draw the line in your own ethics, but where to draw the line in trying to convince others.
When someone offers me meat, fish, or eggs I say that I never eat those products and, if it seems appropriate at the time, explain why. I feel what's going on is bad enough that the issue needs to be raised when we can.
However, for the time being at least, when someone offers me cheese or cake or chocolate, I'm preferring to just politely decline and say no thanks as if I just don't fancy it at that moment.
That's where I am for now, anyway.
