Advertisement

Animals eat animals

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by The Master Of Design, Dec 15, 2017.

?

All animals could survive on plants if people would find a solution?

  1. 100% Yes

    1 vote(s)
    8.3%
  2. Maybe

    6 vote(s)
    50.0%
  3. 100% No

    5 vote(s)
    41.7%
  1. The Master Of Design
    Alone

    The Master Of Design Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    26
    Location:
    Montenegro
    Ratings:
    +6 / 0 / -0
    Lifestyle/Diet:
    Vegan
    "So what, animals eat other animals, it's natural"
    This is the most common answer I hear from the people who are eating meat...

    First of all, I don't think we are animals and second I don't think that animals would eat another animal if this was a better world and people were feeding them with some plant-powered protein. They would never have to eat another animal again... I believe that every animal could survive on plants too if they had some special food.

    I would love to hear your thoughts on this matter!

    Cheers to all who are saving animals on a daily basis just by not eating them.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. nobody

    nobody Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2017
    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    U.S.
    Ratings:
    +42 / 1 / -1
    Lifestyle/Diet:
    Vegan
    In my opinion, we don't have any business providing a solution for predation. Our responsibility to animals is to leave them alone in the wild and not destroy their habitats. We have already messed this up by domesticating several wild animal species. Domesticating these animals has caused them to become completely dependent on us which has brought them immeasurable suffering and death and our responsibility to them now is to not let any of them reproduce, so that they eventually go extinct, leaving only wild animals extant. I am not saying we shouldn't have pets. I have three 'rescue' cats myself. What I am saying is that we should never intentionally allow a single domesticated animal to reproduce because to do so is to just bring more pitiful creatures into the world who are entirely dependent on human's for their well being.

    Biologically, I don't think what you are suggesting could ever work. Maybe it could work in theory with some kind of futuristic or alien technology, I don't know. Many reptiles and and other animals, such as various kinds of fish will not eat anything that isn't moving, so that is one thing.

    As for the statement, "so what, animals eat other animals, it's natural", here is how I would answer them:

    First, the way that you obtain and process meat isn't natural, so if your argument is "what is natural is moral" then you are immoral by buying meat in a grocery store, or using a gun to hunt, etc. To be moral all of the meat you eat should be from animals that you kill with your bare hands and/or teeth and devour raw, or it should be carrion that you come upon, which should also be eaten raw.

    By the same token, it is unnatural to consume the mammary secretions of another species. Human beings are the only animal to do this, and also the only animal that consumes milk past infancy, so nothing whatsoever is natural about dairy, making it completely immoral.

    Second, animals rape each other all the time. Rape is totally natural. So does that make rape moral as well? [Edit: other things that occur in the animal kingdom: the killing of the offspring of rival males, infanticide, cannibalism, etc.]

    Third, animals do not have the degree of self awareness that humans have evolved, which allows us to contemplate the ethics of meat eating in societies in which veganism is a viable alternative. When something isn't necessary it is a choice. Animals cannot even contemplate that choice, let alone make it, so it is absurd to compare them to us in this respect.

    There are probably other ways to answer it but I can't think of any more.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
    • Like Like x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  3. elusiveshadow

    elusiveshadow New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2017
    Messages:
    4
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -3
    Lifestyle/Diet:
    Vegetarian
    Philosophers have already answered this in antiquity. These people are committing the Naturalistic Fallacy - an invalid argument. No reply is necessary. Don't get sucked into their false reasoning.
     
    • Dislike Dislike x 1
  4. Catman

    Catman Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2018
    Messages:
    12
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0
    Lifestyle/Diet:
    Vegan
    This is an interesting topic to me.

    @nobody, I think your thoughts are the standard ones I've come across so far, that we shouldn't interfere with predation.

    But at the same time, if you saw a small kitten yelping for help from some animal attacking it, wouldn't it make sense to help?
     
  5. VjohnV

    VjohnV Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2018
    Messages:
    16
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0
    Lifestyle/Diet:
    Vegan
    animals eat animals.. i get that a lot, so i ask them: by your logic then, should humans also eat humans?.. at that point they usually end that pointless part of the discussion and move on to the next pointless claim, for example "people have always eaten animals so its alright"..
     
  6. Sam

    Sam Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2018
    Messages:
    45
    Ratings:
    +6 / 2 / -1
    Lifestyle/Diet:
    Vegan
    Respectfully disagree

    Its natural to eat meat and its natural to love animals and not want to eat meat. Everything we do is natural. We are nature.

    The distinction made between natural and unnatural is flawed, we just have unique abilities not found in any other animal. Unnatural is just a word used to highlight how different we are to other animals in some of our activities.

    So a good comeback is...... its also natural to hunt, rape murder steal, abuse children and so on, we don't do those things because alot of us are empathetic and have formed intelligent moral opinions/culture, such as treat others how you'd like to be treated, do not kill, do not abuse children, and hopefully soon world wide - do not abuse animals.

    I think it could be bad to feed animals plant based protein feed, it might not be but it sounds like it could be problematic to the biology of the cat/dog etc I hope they make the lab grown meat soon. That would be a better solution, no animal suffers, its real meat almost, so probably better for the animal to eat.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2018
    • Creative Creative x 1
  7. mikek
    Surfing

    mikek Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2018
    Messages:
    51
    Location:
    Devon, UK
    Ratings:
    +9 / 0 / -0
    Lifestyle/Diet:
    Vegan
    1.
    for any species with a high level of thinking & a conscience, killing is wrong. currently i believe humans are the only species in this category
    2.
    maybe it would be natural to us too one day, like perhaps it was in prehistory. i might do it one day, but it's not natural to (EG) hatch a chicken, keep it in a cage with 1000's of others and kill it 3 weeks later for it's dead body (protein). especially in this day & age! Hardly a chore to pick a vegan thing off a supermarket shelf instead of a dead body off the next shelf.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  8. poivron

    poivron Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    97
    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    Ratings:
    +68 / 2 / -0
    Lifestyle/Diet:
    Vegan
    "Animals eat animals" is not even a true statement. Many if not most animals are herbivores: squirrels, rabbits, deer, giraffes, horses, camels, gorillas, and elephants, not to mention cows, goats, and sheep. Moreover, most omnivorous animals have a diet that is almost completely herbivorous, except for the occasional insect.

    Most importantly, the anatomy of a human is that of a herbivore, not a carnivore:
    https://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/09/are-humans-carnivores-or-herbivores-2/
     
  9. Consistency
    No Mood

    Consistency Active Member Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2018
    Messages:
    116
    Ratings:
    +21 / 4 / -3
    The purpose of omnivores/carnivores is to eat the weak animals so the strong survive and therefore the strong genes pass on to the next generation. Eating meat is only justifiable if killing a weak animal contributes to the strength and well being of their next generation. Sounds harsh but this is how nature works.

    I don't like the mentality of saving everyone. Our own domestication isn't helping our own specie.

    1) Dolphins, killer whales, whales, etc.. they all have a high level of thinking and conscience and eat(kill?) fish.

    2) Totally agree. Freedom of animals is of the utmost importance.
     
  10. brownmetalhead
    Question

    brownmetalhead Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2018
    Messages:
    24
    Ratings:
    +5 / 0 / -0
    Lifestyle/Diet:
    Vegan
    Honestly just say the following :
    -animals do not have the moral agency that humans have
    -some animals literally can't get nutrients unless they eat others, whiele humans can
    -animals do a lot of things that we wouldn't consider moral, shall we just do them as well and justify them by saying animals do "insert random animal behaviour"

    This usually works until the person discussing with me jumps to another random argument that usually sucks as well
     
  11. spaceboy

    spaceboy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2018
    Messages:
    5
    Ratings:
    +5 / 0 / -0
    Lifestyle/Diet:
    Vegan
    To anyone using "animals eat animals" as justification to eat animals, just inform them that they are using a "tu quoque" fallacy.

    It's Latin for "you too" and is used in debates to point out the irrationality of drawing a conclusion based on the idea that "someone else did it, so it must be ok."

    Johnny steals an apple and gets caught.
    Johnny defends himself by saying, "But SUZY stole an apple yesterday!"
    Tu quoque. Unfortunately, this fallacy still fools a lot of people. So you might be wasting your breath even talking to someone who thinks that way.

    As for the idea of a cruelty free ecosystem, I think it's a great idea but probably millions of years from happening.

    I disagree with those who draw a moral division between us and animals. Anyone who has ever adopted an "aggressive" dog from a shelter knows what I'm talking about. All animals have certain instincts which help them survive in the wild. Once the threat of kill-or-be-killed is removed, the animal begins to think more rationally rather than survival mode. I currently have 3 "aggressive" dogs who wouldn't hurt a fly, and all I had to do was remove them from their harsh shelter environment and introduce them to a calm home where all life forms are respected. They learned FAST. They don't even chase squirrels or rats.

    But like I said, a violence free ecosystem is a long way off, millions or even billions of years. Each predatorial species would have to be given an alternate food source, and even then it would have to physically evolve to divest itself of predatorial/violent instincts. Given that humans still haven't figured that out, I'm not too optimistic. But it's something to dream about, otherwise the whole point of life is pretty effing depressing.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice