Spirituality Can God witness murder? And what about the after life?

[Blobbenstein]

Religious stuff follows.

I have wondered, if the ten commandments really were from God, what the meaning of the the 'do not kill' commandment was, apart from the obvious.

Maybe it means that if someone is murdered then God draws a veil over the scene.
Maybe the only way for someone to go to Heaven is for God to witness the end of someone's life, and so they pass into the next life.
If that were true, maybe someone who is murdered doesn't go to Heaven straight away. Perhaps they are caught under the veil that God drew, like under and umbrella. God can see the murderer maybe, but not the murder victim, and the victim sleeps under that umbrella until the murderer dies him or herself.
When the murderer dies all spirits would become visible to God, and so are able to pass into Heaven.

This would be one argument against the death penalty, as the death penalty is murder, and maybe God cannot witness that, so there is formed another umbrella.

So the death penalty would delay even further the souls of the dead passing into Heaven.

I wonder if this might be true of animals and the slaughter house too. They are grim places, and many animals lovers wouldn't want to hang around there, so maybe God wouldn't either.

Perhaps people that work in slaughter houses are surrounded by the spirits of dead animals, sleeping until the person dies.

To many atheists that is going to sound insane, or at least typical religious drivel, but maybe it would make sense to some.

I think one of the characters in Apocalypse Now had the same idea, that he wouldn't go to heaven if he died going up that river. May be I got the idea off that film.

 

[beancounter]

By definition a god is omnipotetent, and therefore can do anything... including witnessing a murder.

 

[Pickle Juice]

Maybe he can but he doesn't want to? I dunno, if I was omnipotent and murder disturbed me I wouldn't have created beings capable of it.

Seems to me that if there is a god and heaven anyone who wrongfully gets robbed of their life should get immediate entry.

 

[mlp]

Maybe it means that if someone is murdered then God draws a veil over the scene.
Maybe the only way for someone to go to Heaven is for God to witness the end of someone's life, and so they pass into the next life.

What is the basis for this speculation?

 

[kibbleforlola]

Wut.

First, your logic. I don't get it.

Second, if the bible were more literally translated, the word 'kill' would be 'murder'; as the meaning of the Hebrew original is closer to "murder".

Third; the god of the old testament was a pretty vengeful dude; he was always telling people to go out and kill other people. Including sacking sacking towns and killing women, children, and livestock found within.

God was also totally down with the death penalty. Stoning of adulturers and all that.

 

[Second Summer]

Third; the god of the old testament was a pretty vengeful dude; he was always telling people to go out and kill other people. Including sacking sacking towns and killing women, children, and livestock found within.

God was also totally down with the death penalty. Stoning of adulturers and all that.

Well, that was 2000 years ago or more. Have you not heard this man Jesus? Everything changed with Jesus. (Who is really God also.) Turn the other cheek and all that.

 

[FortyTwo]

Yeah, I'm open to hypothetical religious discussion but this is making very little sense to me.

What does "drawing an umbrella" over a murder victim have anything to do with the Ten Commandments, or the idea that God can witness a murder?

I don't think I'm just being a typical atheist who doesn't understand religious matters. I don't think I can even get to that point because your statements don't make any sense, from any standpoint.

If you could clarify a little, maybe it could be discussed in more detail...?

 

[Blobbenstein]

well, I just thought there might be issues around a murder, and that the victims might be in limbo or something for a while.....maybe it all gets resolved......have people here not seen Ghost?


Anyway, doesn't matter.....I don't really know what happened in the old testament times, probably a lot of fundamentalist stuff, and we know how peaceful all that is, and we know how in touch with eternal truths fundamentalists can be.....they just ooz wisdom...


I can just image a future bible, after the collapse of civilization: and God said to the king of USia, GW, smite my enemy, the unbelievers. And GW raised a mighty army, and cast God's enemy into the firey pit.

Yeah, the old testament is just like a BBC documentary.

 

[FortyTwo]

I haven't seen Ghost but I believe Lovely Bones has a similar premise.

I still really don't understand what you were saying in the first post...

 

[Blobbenstein]

Well, Ghost isn't quite the same as what I'm saying..

All I was saying was that murder situations might not have the present, or a strong presence of god.....maybe that is bollox.....personally I think Jesus came into being so that God didn't have to witness all the **** that goes on on this planet. Jesus would deal with that, and I not sure he would refuse to witness anything bad, so maybe it's all ok.

All I was saying was that: to get to heaven. one would need a higher witness. That if a veil was drawn over someone's murder, that veil would remain, and a spirit would be trapped under it.

I don't feel that murder scenes are probably swamped with the holy spirit.....anyway...I've had a bit more of a proper sleep now, and wot not.....

 

[FortyTwo]

personally I think Jesus came into being so that God didn't have to witness all the **** that goes on on this planet.

That is quite possibly one of the best religious things I've ever heard.

 

[kibbleforlola]

Well, that was 2000 years ago or more. Have you not heard this man Jesus? Everything changed with Jesus. (Who is really God also.) Turn the other cheek and all that.

Yeah, but the ten commandments (I.E. thou shall not kill) were also established by the old testament god. Jesus may have come and said, "hey, be cool, man; don't do any of that stuff"; but for the original argument to work (what I understand of it, anyway) the god of the old testament who set up the commandments and the god of the old testament who was down with killing people must be one in the same. To make sense, he can't contradict himself.

 

[kibbleforlola]

Well, limbo is not biblical; the Catholics came up with it somewhere around the 5th century. Ghost is a movie; I really don't think god had a hand in the making of the plot (not that I neccissarily think god had a hand in writing the bible; but for argument's sake lets give the benefit of the doubt). And lastly, god is omnipresent, both before, during, and after Jesus. Jesus doesn't have anything to do with that, really. And really, because the trinity is seen by most xtian sects as one (three seperate beings that make up one god); if Jesus sees something, technically God the Father would have witnessed it too,

 

[silva]

Isn't there a drunk postings thread for this?

 

[Blobbenstein]

I don't drink, so I can't really post on there.

 

[silva]

I can appreciate musings, but if you have a belief in a God that created everything, and is in control of our destinies, then how is a murder any different than an accident? I think most would say God has a hand in our lives, and deaths, so wouldn't G also have a role in things like allowing murders?
Do you believe in the concept of God vs. Satan?

 

[mlp]

Well, limbo is not biblical; the Catholics came up with it somewhere around the 5th century. Ghost is a movie; I really don't think god had a hand in the making of the plot (not that I neccissarily think god had a hand in writing the bible; but for argument's sake lets give the benefit of the doubt). And lastly, god is omnipresent, both before, during, and after Jesus. Jesus doesn't have anything to do with that, really. And really, because the trinity is seen by most xtian sects as one (three seperate beings that make up one god); if Jesus sees something, technically God the Father would have witnessed it too,

All of this.

God being omnipotent and omnipresent, he would be there and know about murders, child rapes, torture, etc.

That's why I asked where the ideas in your opening post sprouted from - they're not consistent with the Bible or any Judeo Christian teaching or belief that I've ever encountered.

 

[Second Summer]

All of this.

God being omnipotent and omnipresent, he would be there and know about murders, child rapes, torture, etc.

That's why I asked where the ideas in your opening post sprouted from - they're not consistent with the Bible or any Judeo Christian teaching or belief that I've ever encountered.

I think Blobbenstein is of the less dogmatic sort. He has probably considered The Problem of Evil (explaining how God can be simultaneously omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent when there is so much evil happening all around us) and come to the conclusion that something's gotta give.

 

[Blobbenstein]

I can appreciate musings, but if you have a belief in a God that created everything, and is in control of our destinies, then how is a murder any different than an accident? I think most would say God has a hand in our lives, and deaths, so wouldn't G also have a role in things like allowing murders?
Do you believe in the concept of God vs. Satan?

I'm not sure who or what Satan is, and how he originated......my theory on that is he came out of God's knowledge of what evil things could happen.
I find it difficult to understand eternity, but I suppose God has always existed, in this time dimension, and outside of this time dimension, outside this universe. If Satan came out of God's knowledge of what evil can happen, then God must have existed for eternity before this happened.

I suppose we are just too limited to really understand, and there is a danger in thinking one understands, but I can't hep but speculate.

 

[FortyTwo]

Well, limbo is not biblical; the Catholics came up with it somewhere around the 5th century.

The same goes for Hell. It didn't really exist except in reference to piles of burning bodies up until the emerging Church decided to blend the Hellenistic/Greek afterlife into the Bible as to scare people into joining the Church.

I suppose we are just too limited to really understand, and there is a danger in thinking one understands, but I can't hep but speculate.

Now I could understand someone saying this in reference to the existence of God, or to some really complicated argument about spirituality, and I might even accept it if they didn't want to take it any further. But I simply can't make sense of how this has any relevance to a random theory, unfounded by both faith and science and barely decipherable, that you seem to have come up with on a whim after a bit of spiritual thinking. I'm still not entirely sure what you were trying to say, though your later explanations have helped considerably.