Spirituality Can God witness murder? And what about the after life?

[Blobbenstein]

I think science wouldn't help much in these things anyway.


It can help though. It can provide a framework for all the other speculation/philosophy.

 

[Blobbenstein]

I really should get a life, but I don't think that's gonna happen, so it's just me on the couch thinking about religion, or trying to come up with a weird photoshop that will turn people veg*n.

 

[Snowcone]

If a Judeo-Christian god could witness a murder, I'll bet it'd be charged with contempt or obstruction or something for not testifying during all of those criminal trials.

 

[FortyTwo]

I think science wouldn't help much in these things anyway.


It can help though. It can provide a framework for all the other speculation/philosophy.

The matter isn't that science wouldn't help, it's that the entire concept is unfounded, and kind-of random. I think you can believe whatever you want about souls and heaven and murder, but I'm not quite sure what you were hoping to get out of this discussion.

 

[Blobbenstein]

I just like to post my ideas sometimes, by getting them into words, that can free up the mind, and lead to a progression of the ideas.

 

[Dropkick]

My religious beliefs (abridged)

I believe God gave us free will so he wouldn't know what we were going to do.
He created us to entertain himself. Omniscience would be incredibly boring.
He also set up some rules for himself; he now watches but no longer directly interferes with our choices and actions.
That doesn't mean he doesn't love and care for us individually, because he does.
After death we lose the ability to exercise free will (at least in a form that matters in God's game).
We're actually part of God and after death we return to him, and become part of the whole once again.
However those of us that misbehaved and didn't follow God's laws can be excised from the whole and not allowed to return (this is being sent to hell - actually a mistranslation in the Bible of "the grave"). In reality we cease to exist.
Murder is a sin because the murderer is cutting short any possible chance that a 'bad' person could turn himself around and be allowed to return to God.
Suicide is the only unforgivable mortal sin because the person is both breaking a rule and eliminating the ability to recover God's grace.

 

[Blobbenstein]

*spoiler for movie What Dreams May Come*

in that movie Robin Williams character's wife commits suicide, and she goes to some sort of purgatory, from which our Robbie(who's in heaven), has to go and rescue her.

 

[Dropkick]

*spoiler for movie What Dreams May Come*

in that movie Robin Williams character's wife commits suicide, and she goes to some sort of purgatory, from which our Robbie(who's in heaven), has to go and rescue her.

Yes, but except for Star Wars. the first Highlander, The Matrix and a handful of other movies none of them are real.

 

[Blobbenstein]

I agree that suicide is a risky thing in regard to the afterlife, but I just don't think it is the end of the story.

 

[FortyTwo]

Suicide shaming is f**ked up and only serves to mock those who had such a rough life that they felt like they could not hang on. I consider it similar to the entire concept of hell - basically created to scare people and to create a sense of self-righteousness.

 

[silva]

^The idea of suicide being a ticket to an even more f'd up eternity always angered me.
Say that's true, then shouldn't someone whose life was terribly hard, yet suffered mercilessly and believed in Gods redemption, derserving an eternity so much better than those who didn't suffer? If that's the case, then don't the ones born without cares be resentful? And...wouldn't that point to the rich giving up all their worldly goods?

 

[mlp]

I think Blobbenstein is of the less dogmatic sort. He has probably considered The Problem of Evil (explaining how God can be simultaneously omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent when there is so much evil happening all around us) and come to the conclusion that something's gotta give.

I gathered that, but I don't see how that problem is in any way addressed by supposing that God can't see murder (when there are actually much worse things than simple murder being done on a daily basis), and penalizing the vistims of murder to boot.

ETA: Now, it's possible to construct a theory that involves reincarnation which wraps all issues of justice, forgiveness and an ultimately benevolent god up in a nice little package with a pretty bow on top, which is undoubtedly why various people throughout history have been attracted to the idea of reincarnation. As a plus, it takes care of all of those issues of loss, guilt, etc. whenever a loved one dies. The idea of reincarnation is very attractive on a number of levels, so if one is going to ditch Bible based Judeo Christian theory, that's definitely the route to take.

 

[FortyTwo]

I'm a nice God! I care about all my people! They are my prized creations! Except those ones that are having trouble or being murdered, I couldn't care less about them.

 

[Blobbenstein]

It's a bit like those meet your meat videos; personally I won't watch them. Imagine if you could see all that was happening on the planet, twenty four hours a day, it would be a lot worse than those videos.

Like I said, I suppose Jesus has to witness all that stuff, so it's ok... a murder victim might be a bit traumatised.....it's easy to have a simplistic view of things, that good people go to heaven, but good people get a rough deal on Earth, so who is to say that the afterlife would necessarily go smoothly? But maybe it's all tickety-boo for all I know.

 

[FortyTwo]

I won't watch MYM either. But if I had hand-created a bunch of cows, vowed as a powerful being to keep watch over them and contacted them historically on multiple occasions to prove my presence, then I would probably want to, you know, keep watch on them.

The same conundrum applies as it has for centuries: with all the bad in the world, an omnipotent god would not be benevolent to allow it to continue, and a benevolent god could only have limited omnipotence. The argument of a benevolent, omnipotent god in the world we live in is either justification for the non-existence of God or the existence of a rather uncaring one. And in the event one does exist, I don't really fear going to Hell because it was very likely simply incorporated by the early Church to scare people into joining.

 

[Blobbenstein]

what would omnipotence mean anyway? Could he make pi=4?

I think even if you had optimised power there would still be limits on what you could do.

From a scientific thinking stand point, I think you have to take things as they actually are, and work from there, rather than say God has to be this or that.

I don't think God is like some wizard who can weave his magic and get what he wants. God isn't all about power.

 

[mlp]

what would omnipotence mean anyway? Could he make pi=4?

I think even if you had optimised power there would still be limits on what you could do.

From a scientific thinking stand point, I think you have to take things as they actually are, and work from there, rather than say God has to be this or that.

I don't think God is like some wizard who can weave his magic and get what he wants. God isn't all about power.

Then what is God? Some being who just happens to be somewhat more powerful and/or wise than we are? Why worship him?

 

[Blobbenstein]

I personally don't see the point in worship.

I think Jesus said to love him though.

I think the idea that God is the source of everything, and he has always existed, is what is relevant, not some human concept of power.

 

[FortyTwo]

Omnipotence is the total control over everything. There's probably a better definition out there, but whatever. Yes, if a god was omnipotent it could make Pi=4 because it could literally bend the laws of nature.

You're confusing me a little bit with what you're saying. Christians that I know tend to do this, too, when they bring up these points, because they can't seem to decide whether God is an inhuman, incomprehensible being that we can never understand or a kindly being with very similar values and emotions to humans. Yahweh of the Bible is represented as very humanlike, with emotions and ideas coming from humans.

 

[sleepydvdr]

I never understood why God would make us imperfect with ability to be evil. Then send the evil ones to Hell to live in pain for eternity. Why create such a complicated and messed up situation?

Of course, I also doubt there is a God or Satan. I believe in "what you see is what you get".