Spirituality Can God witness murder? And what about the after life?

[kazyeeqen]

Maybe God just adheres to the Prime Directive.

 

[Dropkick]

I'm a nice God! I care about all my people! They are my prized creations! Except those ones that are having trouble or being murdered, I couldn't care less about them.

Which would you rather have:
1) a god who allows evil to exist
or
2) free will
I choose free will every time.

edited on wed 11:30 p.m. 29 august 12 -dk

 

[Dropkick]

I never understood why God would make us imperfect with ability to be evil. Then send the evil ones to Hell to live in pain for eternity. Why create such a complicated and messed up situation?

Of course, I also doubt there is a God or Satan. I believe in "what you see is what you get".

Actually if you study the Christian Religion you'll find that the "Hell" that most Christians believe in, is actually a combination taken from church fabrication, other religions, plays (particularly Dante's Inferno), and mistranslations of the Bible.
In several instances where the Old Testament Bible was translated as saying "Hell" (Sheol) it actually says "the grave".
The Bible says that "Hell" is being separated from God's grace, this is a state of being, not an actual place.


Disclaimer: Of course this is just my opinion after my own studies, as with a little work almost anyone can use the Bible to find or create support for almost anything they believe in. Besides the Bible (a work of man) has been edited and changed many times, and due to this it is only valuable as a study guide.

 

[Dropkick]

More of my personal beliefs (simplified - yet still confusing and sometimes appearing contradictory):
God is the Universe (and everything in it).
God can never be truly defined or described.
He/she/it/them (God - hereafter referred to as He or Him) created man through evolution.
We are not as important to God as we believe, yet we are still important (we are him).
God loves us.
We are not God's only creations.
Earth is not the only planet with life.
Animals are just as important as we are.
We are part of God and when we die our consciousness becomes part of the whole.
If we are "evil" when we die our consciousness gets erased - we cease to exist as separate entities.
There is truly only one sin - turning your face from God(s).
God(s) is not Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. He is all and none at the same time.
Evil is a creation of man, and allowed as we have free will.
You can't have good without evil.
The Bible is just a book.
Churches suck.
Proselytizing sucks (I'm not proselytizing here - I don't care if you agree with me, your beliefs are your own, and according to my belief system it doesn't matter to God if you believe what I do).


I believe in God. I've had his existence proven to my satisfaction (I won't talk about this -private).


Added, for clarity -edited on wed 11:30 p.m. 29 august 12 -dk

 

[mlp]

I personally don't see the point in worship.

I think Jesus said to love him though.

I think the idea that God is the source of everything, and he has always existed, is what is relevant, not some human concept of power.

So God is no different than the Big Bang Theory, or any other explanation for how things came about? Why is there the need to love/believe in/worship him?

I think Jesus also said that you have to believe in him in order to have eternal life. I've never understood that concept, other than being an extremely egocentric one on God's part (unless of course, someone other than God established that rule).

 

[Blobbenstein]

I don't think that much is really known about the big bang. Scientists don't even know what shape/topology the Universe is.

I don't think science will ever be able to say where everything comes from, it can only really say that one thing causes another, which process, working back, might be never ending.

I think all theories are base on axioms, and you will always end up with an axiom you can't prove.......oh well, off to bed.

Why should one love one's pets?

 

[FortyTwo]

Which would you rather have:
1) a god who allows evil
or
2) freewill
I choose freewill every time.

I don't get this. They aren't mutually exclusive. A god who allows free will can allow evil (and according to the definition of God you are arguing, he does) and a god who allows evil is either cruel or allows for free will.

I have no issue with your religious beliefs - I really only take issue if people are using it as an excuse to discriminate or are using it to blind themselves to the world's actualities (and even then it's their own problem and none of my business, unless they are hindering progress for others) - but I'd really like to know what you're getting at here.

 

[mlp]

Why should one love one's pets?

I'm not questioning why God should love us, if he created us. I'm questioning why we should love him, or feel reverence for him, or even respect him.

IMO, if you bring life into being, you're responsible for it. A parent is responsible for his child, whether or not he loves that child. Humans are responsible for the species they've created by breeding them.

I see no reason for a child to love or respect a parent who has done nothing for the child other than to contribute an egg or sperm and bring it to term. And that's basically what God has done (if you believe in a god as creator) - created humans and other animals, and then left us all to our various fates. There's nothing in that to love or respect.

 

[FortyTwo]

I feel that if there were some sort of omnipotent being, a few things would be true:

1.) It would be understandable by science, at least to some degree, even if it was ridiculously complex, as long as it exists and can be observed.
2.) It would also be so beyond our own understanding of morals that are unique to our species and/or our fellow Earth creatures because something so massive and powerful and omnipotent would work in a completely different way, chemically and physically, and although its existence could be explained we'd have a tough time understanding exactly how it thinks (if its "thought" could even be called that, since it would be so complex).
3.) It probably wouldn't give a flying %^$# about Earth because based on the fact that there are billions and billions of galaxies, each with billions and billions of stars, there would have to be somewhere much more interesting out there.

 

[RabbitLuvr]

^The idea of suicide being a ticket to an even more f'd up eternity always angered me.

This week I heard a radio story (on This American Life) about how, at one time, people figured out a loophole to the suicide thing. If you wanted to commit suicide, but also wanted to go to heaven, all you had to do was murder a child (who would then go to heaven). You would then be sentenced to death. Before the execution, you would repent and because you were truly sorry for taking an innocent life, you would go to Heaven. According to this radio story, it was a common enough occurrence that some places removed the death penalty for murdering children.

It made me even more angry at the things people do in the name of religion than I already was.

 

[FortyTwo]

This week I heard a radio story (on This American Life) about how, at one time, people figured out a loophole to the suicide thing. If you wanted to commit suicide, but also wanted to go to heaven, all you had to do was murder a child (who would then go to heaven). You would then be sentenced to death. Before the execution, you would repent and because you were truly sorry for taking an innocent life, you would go to Heaven. According to this radio story, it was a common enough occurrence that some places removed the death penalty for murdering children.

It made me even more angry at the things people do in the name of religion than I already was.

 

[mlp]

Which would you rather have:
1) a god who allows evil
or
2) freewill
I choose freewill every time.

I gather you meant to say "a god who doesn't allow evil" for item number 1?

That choice doesn't answer the question of the immense amount of suffering god has built into the system that doesn't stem from choices, i.e., free will.

 

[Dropkick]

I don't get this. They aren't mutually exclusive. A god who allows free will can allow evil (and according to the definition of God you are arguing, he does) and a god who allows evil is either cruel or allows for free will.

Without evil you can't have good. If you don't have the ability to choose to do evil, doing or being good is a meaningless concept. You can't distinguish darkness if there is no light.
If you remove the ability to choose by definition you remove free will from the equation.

I gather you meant to say "a god who doesn't allow evil" for item number 1?

That choice doesn't answer the question of the immense amount of suffering god has built into the system that doesn't stem from choices, i.e., free will.

Yes, I screwed up I meant "a god who doesn't allow evil" (I also should have written free will as 2 words - I was tired).
I just edited it and made it better.
Thanks

Okay suffering, I wasn't talking about suffering, but here it goes:

First a definition/clarification: Evil and suffering are 2 separate things. You can be evil and cause suffering, but suffering in itself isn't evil.

(I'm ignoring that a tremendous amount of mankind's suffering is caused by itself, or is easily fixable and yet isn't - I'm not discussing that and only talking of my philosophy concerning suffering - besides that goes back to the evil vs. good dichotomy).

My belief:
Suffering is a necessary impetuous to, or a byproduct of growth, and/or learning. Without growth there is only stagnation. As such it is necessary.

 

[mlp]

Okay suffering, I wasn't talking about suffering, but here it goes:

First a definition/clarification: Evil and suffering are 2 separate things. You can be evil and cause suffering, but suffering in itself isn't evil.

(I'm ignoring that a tremendous amount of mankind's suffering is caused by itself, or is easily fixable and yet isn't - I'm not discussing that and only talking of my philosophy concerning suffering - besides that goes back to the evil vs. good dichotomy).

My belief:
Suffering is a necessary impetuous to, or a byproduct of growth, and without growth there is only stagnation. As such it is needed.

I agree with you about evil and suffering.

For the most part, I don't agree with you about suffering. It's a byproduct of growth only to the extent that one feels regret/guilt/sadness over the wrongs (of action or omission) one has committed. And that's not the kind of suffering I was talking about. For some people, suffering may be a necessary impetus for growth. For others, it's not necessary. And for yet others, it's a barrier to growth (prime example: those who are abused as children who end up becoming abusers themselves).

But let's say that God made a conscious decision to give humans free will, which, as you say, necessitates the existence of good and evil. That evil will cause suffering. What reason therefore for all of the suffering that isn't caused by evil? All the suffering caused by famine, disease, accidents, birth defects, fire, natural disasters and other acts of God? It's not as though there wouldn't be sufficient suffering just because of the evil associated with free will - assault, rape, murder, war, greed at the expense of others, slander, theft, cheating - the whole pantheon of human evil. That should be sufficient suffering to assist in human growth.

 

[FortyTwo]

Without evil you can't have good. If you don't have the ability to choose to do evil, doing or being good is a meaningless concept. You can't distinguish darkness if there is no light.
If you remove the ability to choose by definition you remove free will from the equation.

That's all fine and dandy, but I was talking about...

Yes, I screwed up I meant "a god who doesn't allow evil" (I also should have written free will as 2 words - I was tired).
I just edited it and made it better.
Thanks

...and there we go.

 

[jeneticallymodified]

i would assume that being a god might be like playing a very complicated game of the sims.

seeing i can't play the regular plain old sims without dying pathetically in a puddle of my own **** while trying to get the newspaper off the sodding lawn within about 2 minutes of starting a game, it's probably just as well that i'm not actually a deity in the real world.

i can't see why a murderer and their victim would have to be held under a veil (is this like a mystical bell jar of some kind?) as one would expect a god to have a wicked cctv setup in his little skyfort, with the ability to pause live programming and rewind to the bloody bits, to see what happened- with accompanying commentary from the cast appearing in a little bubble on the corner of the screen...he could put you in the green room for a bit while he perused the footage if he was off having a wee and/or getting a beer and so missed the event itself and needed to rewind.

one would expect such a deity to have the stomach to handle it too... especially with all the promoting and advocating of gory acts that seem to have been done back in the day.

 

[FortyTwo]

i would assume that being a god might be like playing a very complicated game of the sims.

seeing i can't play the regular plain old sims without dying pathetically in a puddle of my own **** while trying to get the newspaper off the sodding lawn within about 2 minutes of starting a game, it's probably just as well that i'm not actually a deity in the real world.

One of my friends ended up starving to death while flirting with someone.

 

[kibbleforlola]

What if we are all just a game of the sims?!

 

[FortyTwo]

What if we are all just a game of the sims?!

Then who was phone!!!11??//

 

[Blobbenstein]

Dana just posted this on VB: