Dazed and Confused...

[Lou]

I can't find a specific post I want to respond to. But several of you have brought up vitamin supplements and I think @ Sunny said that she thought it best to get micronutrients from food not pills.

I totally agree with this sentiment.

there are some facts that make this not completely practical. Vegans requiring supplemental vitamin B12 is the most obvious.

I live in California and go outside quite often, but when checked I was low in D. From what I've heard most people are - so I take Vitamin D pill.

And as we discussed before I also take an Omega 3 DHA/EPA. The omega 3 and the B12 I only take every other day - so I am only swallowing two pills a day.

in fact, some supplements don't contain the right version of the vitamin or mineral. so its usually a safer bet to go with getting it from food. Also intaking too much is very hard to do with Just Food. But if for one reason or another you need to supplement - there is nothing inherently wrong with that.

for most people who don't pay that much attention to their diet - a good multi is an insurance policy.

 

[KLS52]

Just an fyi... I use nutritional yeast everyday, mostly because I love it. I have never had to supplement any additional B12.** I get my levels checked every year and they are always within normal range.

I was diagnosed with osteopenia when I just started out down the vegetarian/vegan path. After giving up dairy, I find it interesting that the osteopenia has not progressed at all...after 16 years. I do not supplement with any form of calcium.**

**I do take a multi vitamin (it does not have calcium but does have 2 mcg b12) and vitamin D.

 

[Sunny]

I don't know about this supplement question. I feel like supplements are actually pretty natural, like they are just a shortcut to get a little more of what we need.

What could be unnatural about getting some extra B vitamins from a special yeast like nutritional yeast?

Is taking extra iron (if I need it, since I seem to be a person with a high need for this) as iron, instead of as the blood of an animal, less natural?

Is taking extra zinc as zinc, instead of as the flesh of a fish, less natural?

(by the way, I know plant foods have iron and zinc. Please don't be too mad at me about that)

I don't want to struggle and suffer with infection, exposure to cold, or any of the other things my ancestors may have succumbed to. So I take advantage of modern conveniences like a gas-heated abode and any supplements that will keep me feeling well. I enjoy fresh fruit and also take some C. Why not?

Is it possible that even someone on a very good diet can benefit from a little boost? Or even a big boost?

How could any diet ever be "perfect"?

I agree. What I meant was not about the supplements that "boost" our nutrient intake but if they HAD to be taken in order to survive on a particular diet- that would suggest that what a person was eating was not sufficient. Though with depletion of nutrients in our soil, I expect the time will come when we all have to have supplements of one sort or another.

 

[Sunny]

I can't find a specific post I want to respond to. But several of you have brought up vitamin supplements and I think @ Sunny said that she thought it best to get micronutrients from food not pills.

I totally agree with this sentiment.

there are some facts that make this not completely practical. Vegans requiring supplemental vitamin B12 is the most obvious.

I live in California and go outside quite often, but when checked I was low in D. From what I've heard most people are - so I take Vitamin D pill.

And as we discussed before I also take an Omega 3 DHA/EPA. The omega 3 and the B12 I only take every other day - so I am only swallowing two pills a day.

in fact, some supplements don't contain the right version of the vitamin or mineral. so its usually a safer bet to go with getting it from food. Also intaking too much is very hard to do with Just Food. But if for one reason or another you need to supplement - there is nothing inherently wrong with that.

for most people who don't pay that much attention to their diet - a good multi is an insurance policy.

Yep, I do agree regarding the "insurance policy". I have nothing against supplements and I do take some, as you and others say, for a boost, to ensure good health, etc. My mother is a big meat eater and she has been deficient in vitamin D for years. She has been on a high dose supplements for a long time. I think the thought these days is that if you live in the northern hemisphere you should be taking vitamin D supplement.

 

[Sunny]

Just an fyi... I use nutritional yeast everyday, mostly because I love it. I have never had to supplement any additional B12.** I get my levels checked every year and they are always within normal range.

I was diagnosed with osteopenia when I just started out down the vegetarian/vegan path. After giving up dairy, I find it interesting that the osteopenia has not progressed at all...after 16 years. I do not supplement with any form of calcium.**

**I do take a multi vitamin (it does not have calcium but does have 2 mcg b12) and vitamin D.

This is so interesting. It makes me think that there is so much for the medical profession to learn about veganism and the long term effects on our body.

 

[Tom L.]

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with supplements, although I think it's generally agreed that nutrients such as vitamins are absorbed and metabolized more efficiently from food. I just think it's best to take only those you know you need. "Vegetarian Times" magazine has done good articles about nutrients; I remember one article about iron (which both meat eaters and vegetarians can have a problem getting enough of) and another describing studies which investigated whether or not unnaturally huge doses of Vitamin C were effective in treating or preventing colds.

I've mentioned sometimes that I once was short of vitamin D and needed to take a prescription-strength supplement some time ago, even though I had thought sunbathing during the summer in my shorts would give me enough. And I do take B-12, although the tablets have such huge doses that I take about 1/4 to 1/3 of a tablet each day; my doctor knows I consume no animal foods to speak of, and knows what to look out for during my checkup.

One more thought: as I see it, modern medicine might not always be "natural", but it improves the length AND quality of our lives. I have no problem with using supplements to avoid harming animals, as well.

 

[silva]

Just an fyi... I use nutritional yeast everyday, mostly because I love it. I have never had to supplement any additional B12.** I get my levels checked every year and they are always within normal range.


**I do take a multi vitamin (it does not have calcium but does have 2 mcg b12) and vitamin D.

I thought you had that MTHF gene thing where you need folate and b12 methylated?
All the fortified nooch I thought was cyanocobalimin? And Folic acid?
You eat like 2 Tblsp a day?

I get such an aftertaste from the fortified nooch

 

[KLS52]

I thought you had that MTHF gene thing where you need folate and b12 methylated?
All the fortified nooch I thought was cyanocobalimin? And Folic acid?
You eat like 2 Tblsp a day?

I get such an aftertaste from the fortified nooch

Yes, you've brought that up a few times and I can never figure it out. I do have the mutated gene. And yes, I easily consume 2 tblsp of fortified nutritional yeast. I tried the non fortified but I just didn't like it as much. I even bought folate but then was afraid to take it lol. I'm very confused by it all.

 

[KLS52]

This is my result:

MTHFR, DNA Analysis

RESULT:
* Result: C677T/A1298C Two mutations (C677T and A1298C) identified . Interpretation: . This individual is heterzygous for both the MTHFR C677T and A1298C variants (one copy of each). Compound heterozygosity for the C677T and A1298C variants is unlikely to be of clinical significance, based on consensus of published reports. This combination of results, however, may be associated with increased risk for the development of hyperhomocysteinemia when the individual is deficient in folate, vitamin B6, or vitamin B12. A fasting homocysteine level should be measured. This genotype alone in the absence of hyperhomocysteinemia, does not increase risk of venous thrombosis, coronary artery disease or recurrent pregnancy loss. However, hyperhomocysteinemia may also occur due to mutations in enzymes other than MTHFR that are involved in homocysteine metabolism, or arise due to acquired factors. In the evaluation of vascular and obstetric risk, consider measuring fasting homocysteine. Additional risk factors may be detected through systematic clinical laboratory analysis.

 

[silva]

I've been interested in the MFTHR mutations as my son seems to have all the traits--but he doesn't want to be tested and doesn't think he does. Or he doesn't think it's an impact? IDK
Now the things i'm reading don't directly address b12 - at least not in ways I understand

What the MTHFR?! — Wellness Speaks

MTHFR mutation will have some level of impairment when it comes to detoxification. A detoxification impairment leads to high levels of inflammation and nutrient depletion (because your body is frantically trying to detox). High levels of inflammation are being shown to be the root of many diseases t

www.wellness-speaks.com

I also bought methylated folate, but he wouldn't take it either!

I'm surprised you don't care for the non fortified nooch though! I would have quit eating it altogether if I didn't try the non fortified!

 

[KLS52]

I've been interested in the MFTHR mutations as my son seems to have all the traits--but he doesn't want to be tested and doesn't think he does. Or he doesn't think it's an impact? IDK
Now the things i'm reading don't directly address b12 - at least not in ways I understand

What the MTHFR?! — Wellness Speaks

MTHFR mutation will have some level of impairment when it comes to detoxification. A detoxification impairment leads to high levels of inflammation and nutrient depletion (because your body is frantically trying to detox). High levels of inflammation are being shown to be the root of many diseases t

www.wellness-speaks.com

I also bought methylated folate, but he wouldn't take it either!

I'm surprised you don't care for the non fortified nooch though! I would have quit eating it altogether if I didn't try the non fortified!

I want my daughter to get tested but her doctor kind of shrugged it off and said it's quite common. My daughter was diagnosed with MS about 15 years ago. She was giving herself injections of Copaxone every day for 8 months. Then they decided it wasn't MS. She still has issues with her legs every few months. She is always iron deficient and can't seem to get her levels up.

My sister is also has the gene mutation and she's been bedridden, unable to walk, for the last 3-4 years with no real diagnosis. At one point her b12 was so low she needed injections. Same with low iron/ferritin...had infusions for that too. I don't know if any of that had to do with the MTHFR gene but it raises a lot if questions and doctors just look at you like you have two heads.

 

[Lou]

And I do take B-12, although the tablets have such huge doses that I take about 1/4 to 1/3 of a tablet each day;

As far as I know, the B12 blood test is not that accurate.
and you don't need to be splitting up your B12. just take one every 3 or 4 days. Some people just take a massive dose once a week.
Keep in mind that the reason people take massive doses is that that after the first 1 mcg, the absorption rate goes down to like 1%. ( I may have those numbers wrong - I'm too tired to look them up right now)
I take 1000 mcg every other day. but now that I'm older maybe I should take one everyday.

 

[silva]

Dr Greger explains the absoption rate really well in this video.

 

[Tom L.]

As far as I know, the B12 blood test is not that accurate.
and you don't need to be splitting up your B12. just take one every 3 or 4 days. Some people just take a massive dose once a week.
Keep in mind that the reason people take massive doses is that that after the first 1 mcg, the absorption rate goes down to like 1%. ( I may have those numbers wrong - I'm too tired to look them up right now)
I take 1000 mcg every other day. but now that I'm older maybe I should take one everyday.

I don't think I was tested for blood serum B-12 levels specifically. I know it's not normally present in non-animal foods- and since B-12 is not toxic in large doses and isn't even expensive, I figure it's safe to assume I need it and act accordingly.

 

[silva]

From Dr Greger, https://nutritionfacts.org/video/new-vitamin-b12-test/---

Should people who eat plant-based diets be tested for vitamin B12 deficiency? In my opinion, medical tests should only be ordered if the results, one way or the other, are going to change what you do. If your test came back showing your B12 levels were low, what would you do? You’d insure a regular, reliable source of vitamin B12. If your tests came back showing your levels were okay, what would you do? You’d ensure a regular, reliable source of B12, because you wouldn’t want them to become not okay.

So, if it’s not going to matter either way, I wouldn’t worry about it—with two exceptions. I recommend anyone with unexplained neurological, psychiatric, or developmental symptoms be tested—especially in infants, toddlers, vegans, and anyone over 50. And, out of an abundance of caution, I’ve always tested all my pregnant and breastfeeding vegan patients, just because the consequences of deficiency are so potentially devastating.

Better than getting a serum B12 level drawn, though, which most doctors do, a methylmalonic acid level is a superior test for B12 deficiency, which can be blood or urine. You can just pee in a cup for it.

Here’s why measuring MMA levels is better. About 50 people started eating vegan. Within a few years, half became B12-deficient. But look at their B12 levels. All these vegans had functional B12 deficiency, despite normal levels of B12 in their blood—showing that MMA is a more effective test.

Now, there has been a case report published of someone with apparent B12 deficiency, who had normal B12 and MMA levels. So, we’re always looking for a better test, and it looks like HoloTC is it, measuring Holotranscobalamin levels; shown to be more sensitive and specific, meaning fewer false negatives and false positives. If your level is under 20, you start treatment. If it’s over 30, you can be pretty sure you’re okay. And if it’s in the middle, you follow up with a second-line test.

 

[KLS52]

I know I have to ask, specifically, for my b12 to be tested. I have been doing so for the last 10 years or so as it's not part of a regular blood panel. Luckily my insurance always covered it. Not all do.

 

[KLS52]

Yeah. oh I should have said 20/60/20

People on the raw diet get something like 10/80/10

The Zone Diet which is for athletes is something like 30/40/30.

meat eaters probably get something like 25/50/25

I've been tracking the last few days to see how I do and I've been pretty consistent with 50/30/20. My Fitbit does carbs/fat/protein. This was with taking in 1500 calories.

 

[bEt]

I was diagnosed with osteopenia when I just started out down the vegetarian/vegan path. After giving up dairy, I find it interesting that the osteopenia has not progressed at all...after 16 years. I do not supplement with any form of calcium.**

This article suggests that high homocysteine may interfere with healthy bone metabolism:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7568439_Homocysteine_-_A_newly_recognised_risk_factor_for_osteoporosis#:~:text=A%20first%20link%20between%20homocysteine%20%28hcy%29%20and%20the,numerous%20skeletal%20defects%2C%20including%20reduced%20BMD%20and%20osteopenia.

"Recent data suggest that homocysteine (Hcy), folate, vitamin B6 and vitamin B12 affect bone metabolism, bone quality and fracture risk in humans. Since circulating Hcy depends on folate, vitamin B6 and vitamin B12, Hcy could be suitable as a risk indicator for micronutrient-deficiency-related osteoporosis.

"Initial experimental results indicate that Hcy [homocysteine] is not only a risk indicator, but also a player in bone metabolism. Moreover, existing data open speculation that folate, vitamin B6 and vitamin B12 act not only via Hcy-dependent pathways, but also via Hcy-independent pathways.

"However, more studies are needed to clarify the mechanistic role of Hcy [homocysteine], folate, vitamin B6 and vitamin B12 in bone metabolism."

So maybe as KLS52 suggested, it's not just about calcium?