Fourth Wave Feminism

[das_nut]

The fact that not everyone chooses to live a capitalistic lifestyle does not make the system which determines one's "success" any less capitalistic.

Well, only if you define success by material goods.

After all, that's what you're complaining about, that feminism isn't doing enough to fight the capitalistic system.

I'm complaining that feminism, instead of trying to fix the flaws in the current system, would rather have access to them.

 

[Mischief]

Well, only if you define success by material goods.

Well, that's why I put "success" in quotation marks.

I'm complaining that feminism, instead of trying to fix the flaws in the current system, would rather have access to them.

1. What you see as flaws may not be viewed as flaws by others.
2. It's a very difficult fight for some groups to have full access to a system. It's an even harder fight to change a system, especially when you don't have access to it.

 

[das_nut]

1. What you see as flaws may not be viewed as flaws by others.
2. It's a very difficult fight for some groups to have full access to a system. It's an even harder fight to change a system, especially when you don't have access to it.

Are you arguing that feminism is, by its very goals, ineffective?

 

[Mischief]

Are you arguing that feminism is, by its very goals, ineffective?

No. I'm just saying that there's no more point in expecting feminism to change our economic system than there is in expecting veganism to change our political system. It's not the function or purpose of either movement.

And that's where I came into the discussion, so having come full circle, I'll get off the merry-go-round rather than taking another ride.

 

[das_nut]

No. I'm just saying that there's no more point in expecting feminism to change our economic system than there is in expecting veganism to change our political system. It's not the function or purpose of either movement.

Well, I'm pretty sure that feminism is trying to make changes in our economic system - specifically by putting in place artificial restrictions on how businesses can operate, primarily in regards with sexism in the workplace and in hiring practices.

But hey, if you're telling me that's not a purpose of feminism, so be it.

 

[Clueless Git]

Are you arguing that feminism is, by its very goals, ineffective?

Was that for me?

If so then yes so but even more so ...

Feminism (in the form adopted by misandrists and female misogynists) may actualy be worse than ineffective. It may be self defeating.

Would be great to be able to set out and discuss the reasoning's behind that in a civilised fashion.

 

[Clueless Git]

I'm complaining that feminism, instead of trying to fix the flaws in the current system, would rather have access to them.

Aye ..

Asking your oppressor to chuck the boot away is one thing.

Asking your oppressor to give you the boot so you can take 'revenge' on him/her is quite another thing altogether

 

[Mischief]

Well, I'm pretty sure that feminism is trying to make changes in our economic system - specifically by putting in place artificial restrictions on how businesses can operate, primarily in regards with sexism in the workplace and in hiring practices.

But hey, if you're telling me that's not a purpose of feminism, so be it.

Sooner or later, a discussion with you ends up in much the same place as a discussion with RF1.

 

[Mischief]

Aye ..

Asking your oppressor to chuck the boot away is one thing.

Asking your oppressor to give you the boot so you can take 'revenge' on him/her is quite another thing altogether

Well, you seem pretty committed to the boot, considering the amount of time you spend going on about what a great entrepreneur you are, and in a business in which you have completely set aside your vegan "principles", which apparently don't count when it comes to making money.

 

[das_nut]

Sooner or later, a discussion with you ends up in much the same place as a discussion with RF1.

Are you trying to argue against my ideas, or against me? Because ad homs may be a sign that your argument isn't as well-thought out as you'd like it to be.

 

[das_nut]

Was that for me?

Actually nope (I was quoting who I was replying to), but I'll take your answer.

Feminism (in the form adopted by misandrists and female misogynists) may actualy be worse than ineffective. It may be self defeating.

Would be great to be able to set out and discuss the reasoning's behind that in a civilised fashion.

Unfortunately the hostile tendencies of the 'this a private self pity party' crew towards any non self pitying input renders that impossible.

I'd say that there would be some misandrists and misogynists in the group, but they aren't (for the most part) mainstream at all. It's easy to confuse a crazy fringe of a group with vast majority of the group, but it's a disservice to the group as a whole.

Now when you examine the group has a whole's ideas, I'd see some ideas that may not be effective, or at least not effective as the alternatives. But it depends on what you'd define as a group - there's plenty of casual feminists, and as such, I don't expect them to know (nor should they need to know) the intricacies of the various theories or proposed solutions. If you're talking about the group as various leaders and doers in feminism, then we fall into the problem of how much of a leader is action, and how much of a leader is reaction - that is, does the leader produce the group, or does the group produce the leader?

Anyways, this is probably more philosophical than you'd like as an answer, and it's pretty generalized. Sorry.

 

[Mischief]

Are you trying to argue against my ideas, or against me? Because ad homs may be a sign that your argument isn't as well-thought out as you'd like it to be.

I'm saying that discussions with you tend to go around and around the same circles. You probably think the same about me.

I just don't find it interesting after the first go around, just as I don't enjoy watching a movie over and over.

 

[das_nut]

I'm saying that discussions with you tend to go around and around the same circles. You probably think the same about me.

I just don't find it interesting after the first go around, just as I don't enjoy watching a movie over and over.

I find it rather interesting that you and I don't seem to be communicating a point effectively. Either I'm missing something or you are.

But if you don't have the patience, then I understand.

 

[Mischief]

I find it rather interesting that you and I don't seem to be communicating a point effectively. Either I'm missing something or you are.

I'd agree that one of us is missing something if this were an isolated incident, but I find the same holds true of pretty much every discussion we engage in, except those where we start on the same page (and even with some of those).

 

[Clueless Git]

Actually nope (I was quoting who I was replying to), but I'll take your answer.

Doh!

Sorry das, I have 3/4 of the 'usual suspects' on ignore now. Seems that hides their replies even when someone else quotes them.

I'd say that there would be some misandrists and misogynists in the group, but they aren't (for the most part) mainstream at all. It's easy to confuse a crazy fringe of a group with vast majority of the group, but it's a disservice to the group as a whole.

Just for clarity my comments were exclusively about the misandrist/misogynist factor.