George Zimmerman trial

[Freesia]

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/11808013-george-zimmermans-criminal-records-revealed

Perhaps Trayvon Martin should have been following him, he is the one with the criminal record. He has been arrested before for fighting with police, and had a restraining order put against him by an ex partner and domestic violence allegations. Plus he speeds.

 

[cornsail]

"If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony." - Judge Debra Nelson to jurors

I assume in a self defense case the jurors are going to be informed of all the self defense laws that may or may not be relevant. That doesn't mean that this case was decided based on SYG... Again, duty to retreat only matters when retreat is possible. The defense never made any SYG arguments. Their argument was that TM was on top of GZ at the time of the shooting.

 

[Dedalus]

-Sean Noffke (the non-emergency number operator) is not a law enforcement officer.
-Noffke's suggestion wasn't to "stay put".
-It's not clear the GZ did not follow Sean Noffke's suggestion. By GZ's account he did not continue attempting to follow after Noffke had said "we don't need you to do that" and GZ had responded "okay". I'm not saying GZ's account must be believed, just that it's not clear one way or the other.

Okay let's review:

Noffke is not LE. Check.
Noffke on made a suggestion; IE: 'We don't need you to do that' regarding GZ's pursuit. Check.

From my previous post: Had GZ done as instructed suggested- this could all have been avoided and one young man would still be alive today.

Happy now?

-It's not clear the GZ did not follow Sean Noffke's suggestion. By GZ's account he did not continue attempting to follow after Noffke had said "we don't need you to do that" and GZ had responded "okay". I'm not saying GZ's account must be believed, just that it's not clear one way or the other.

Admittedly I've had a few beers - but your statement is a conundrum. If GZ did not follow - how did things end up the way they did?

 

[cornsail]

Okay let's review:

Noffke is not LE. Check.
Noffke on made a suggestion; IE: 'We don't need you to do that' regarding GZ's pursuit. Check.

From my previous post: Had GZ done as instructed suggested- this could all have been avoided and one young man would still be alive today.

Happy now?

Happier.

Admittedly I've had a few beers - but your statement is a conundrum. If GZ did not follow - how did things end up the way they did?

He did follow initially. He claims he stopped after the dispatcher's suggestion and went to go find an address to give to the police and then (if I remember correctly) was walking back toward his vehicle when he was confronted by TM. For all we know he might have kept following rather than looking for an address. It's just not clear whether he did or not.

 

[ledboots]

Okay let's review:

Noffke is not LE. Check.
Noffke on made a suggestion; IE: 'We don't need you to do that' regarding GZ's pursuit. Check.

From my previous post: Had GZ done as instructed suggested- this could all have been avoided and one young man would still be alive today.

Happy now?



Admittedly I've had a few beers - but your statement is a conundrum. If GZ did not follow - how did things end up the way they did?

Per the defense, Trayvon circled around and jumped Zimmerman from behind.

 

[ledboots]

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/11808013-george-zimmermans-criminal-records-revealed

Perhaps Trayvon Martin should have been following him, he is the one with the criminal record. He has been arrested before for fighting with police, and had a restraining order put against him by an ex partner and domestic violence allegations. Plus he speeds.

If we get started with things not allowed in court, there are photos of Trayvon doing gang poses with a gun that he had on his phone, he was suspended for having weed at school, and had marijuana in his system the night he was killed. That wasn't allowed in court either, nor were the texts on his phone.

Btw all Americans speed.

 

[Second Summer]

Btw all Americans speed.

Foreigners too, at least when they're in the US. Both myself and the crown prince of Norway (to name a few!) have been pulled over for speeding while on vacation in the US. I got off with a warning tho, as I wasn't going terribly much too fast. Or maybe because I had a difficult name.

 

[beancounter]

So gz thought tm was suspicious because he was carrying skittles and AZ icetea?

 

[ledboots]

So gz thought tm was suspicious because he was carrying skittles and AZ icetea?

According to the paramedic who treated Trayvon at the scene, she removed a can of flavored iced tea from Trayvon's pocket. She said she felt something else in the pocket that was not in her way so she didn't remove it, and of course that turned out to be skittles. So I guess the stuff was not in plain sight to Zimmerman.

There was a lot of recent crime in that neighborhood, and the police had told residents to call if they saw anyone suspicious or unknown. That's the same thing the deputy told us when a neighborhood watch was started in my old neighborhood.

 

[Dedalus]

Happier.

Well cheers to you. I find nothing in this story to be 'happy' about.

He did follow initially. He claims he stopped after the dispatcher's suggestion and went to go find an address to give to the police and then (if I remember correctly) was walking back toward his vehicle when he was confronted by TM. For all we know he might have kept following rather than looking for an address. It's just not clear whether he did or not.

I think this falls into the 'reasonable doubt' bracket. My doubt of the killer's version of the story is pretty ******* reasonable.

 

[Dedalus]

Per the defense, Trayvon circled around and jumped Zimmerman from behind.

If some weird dude was stalking me enough to the point where I felt threatened - I may be inclined to do the same. And I may be inclined - after I tackled the dude who was following me for no valid reason; to slam his head into the sidewalk; or for the purposes of this argument - to do whatever I felt necessary to <cough> defend myself. After all - HE was in pursuit of me. HE initiated the conflict.

Oh - but wait. HE is at liberty to shoot me dead, since he happens to be carrying a gun - that he's been fantasizing about using, thereby rendering my self-defense argument null and void since - well, you know - I'm dead and no one will ever hear my version of the story.

 

[cornsail]

Well cheers to you. I find nothing in this story to be 'happy' about.

Wow, with the scare quotes around "happy" and everything. Even though you were the one who asked me if I was happy and even though it was happiness about your making corrections, not about the story. You really set me up to knock me down, huh?

I think this falls into the 'reasonable doubt' bracket. My doubt of the killer's version of the story is pretty ****ing reasonable.

I agree, it is a reasonable thing to doubt. I was only taking issue with your stating a speculative version of events as fact.

 

[beancounter]

If some weird dude was stalking me enough to the point where I felt threatened - I may be inclined to do the same. And I may be inclined - after I tackled the dude who was following me for no valid reason; to slam his head into the sidewalk; or for the purposes of this argument - to do whatever I felt necessary to <cough> defend myself. After all - HE was in pursuit of me. HE initiated the conflict.

Oh - but wait. HE is at liberty to shoot me dead, since he happens to be carrying a gun - that he's been fantasizing about using, thereby rendering my self-defense argument null and void since - well, you know - I'm dead and no one will ever hear my version of the story.

Yes! the second elephant in the room, people are choosing to ignore.

In addition, if he had lived, he could have invoked the Florida SYG laws to justify not running away, and attacking GZ.

 

[Spang]

In addition, if he had lived, he could have invoked the Florida SYG laws to justify not running away, and attacking GZ.

Stand Your Ground laws aren't designed to benefit Black people.

 

[beancounter]

I've been thinking about how different people perceive the case through the lens of their own experiences or beliefs.

For example, in my case, I've been profiled by police on 4 separate occasions, one women, a substitute teacher and one senator/congressman. Yep, a white kid being profiled by other whites in predominately white areas. I'll gladly go into details if anyone wants me to.

But my point here, is because of the unjustified profiles, I can empathize with TM, and how he must have felt. The anger and frustration that festers.
Others may empathize with CZ because they've been mugged or robbed. Or maybe because of their distrust of the government, they think the whole thing was orchestrated to dilute gun rights, thus support CZ, a gun owner.

Our different life experiences bring different perspectives.

 

[ledboots]

Maybe all these people can share the cost of the trial and costs for needed increased police presence with Florida taxpayers.

 

[Spang]

Maybe all these people can share the cost of the trial and costs for needed increased police presence with Florida taxpayers.

As long as Rick Scott is your governor, all of that money would just go to waste.

 

[beancounter]

Maybe all these people can share the cost of the trial and costs for needed increased police presence with Florida taxpayers.

Or maybe the money can used for better training of citizen watch group members, and background checks to weed out anyone from those groups who has a history of violence against police and spouses.

 

[ledboots]

Or maybe the money can used for better training of citizen watch group members, and background checks to weed out anyone from those groups who has a history of violence against police and spouses.

I think you may have a skewed idea of what neighborhood watch groups are here in Florida. When my neighbor started one years ago, she asked me to attend the first meeting, as the deputy said there had to be a certain minimum # of attendees.

The deputy told us to lock our doors, windows, and cars; to keep garage doors shut, and our eyes open. She said to watch for unknown vehicles or people as we went about our lives, and to call the non-emergency police number if someone unknown or suspicious were seen. A neighbor phone number list was created so we could warn one another if something happened. My neighbor Vicky was the captain, and she as a schoolteacher and mother of four was hardly a gun-toting, cop wannabe racist vigilante. The county put up a sign in our neighborhood to warn away criminals. That's the extent of neighborhood watch. Do you think we all should have been fingerprinted and given out our social security #s to be background checked for this?

Of course we do live in Florida, so are, I'm sure, profiled automatically as blowing away anyone who steps in our path, especially children of a different race.

 

[beancounter]

Do you think we all should have been fingerprinted and given out our social security #s to be background checked for this?

Of course we do live in Florida, so are, I'm sure, profiled automatically as blowing away anyone who steps in our path

I was under the impression that watch groups periodically go out on patrol.

No, but SYG laws open the door for such behavior.

Besides wouldn't you rather wrestle an alligator?