Here is something to ponder

[Nekodaiden]

This is perfect example of a simple strawman:

Person A) The protein myth (describes what it is)

Person B) Protein isn’t a myth! You need it!

Is likened to

Person A) The China Study (describes what it is)

Person B) China isn’t a study! It’s a country!


Person B is engaging in straw man arguments (in this case, by word play, but there are other forms such as context dropping, substitute phrases, inaccurate summation and insinuations of motive).


Me:You actually perpetuate the protein myth as a multi year vegan and previous multi year vegetarian? I find it difficult to believe you’ve been a veggie so long. Seriously? Are you not aware that by World Health Organization standards the recommended protein for humans on a daily basis is a mere 0.8 grams per kilogram of (ideal) body weight? Someone eating natural plant foods to satiation which include enough whole grains, legumes, seeds and nuts cannot possibly have a protein deficiency even if they are bodybuilding.

FN: As for protein, yes you do need protein. It's not a myth. You just don't need as much protein as the average American thinks. But protein is very filling, fiber is not the only filling ingredient.

Just one example of many.

 

[Veganite]

If anyone looks, the name calling started with Forest Nymph in her first post directed to me.

Enough finger pointing. I don't care who started it. You are innocent of all poor behavior on the forum, right? Seems like the trouble only exists when you're involved. Not one little problem when you were on vacation. And FYI, no one reported anything to me. Mods do read posts on their own.

If you can't grow up and post like an adult, don't post. If you want a longer vacation, one can be arranged quickly.

 

[Nekodaiden]

Enough finger pointing. I don't care who started it. You are innocent of all poor behavior on the forum, right? Seems like the trouble only exists when you're involved. Not one little problem when you were on vacation. And FYI, no one reported anything to me. Mods do read posts on their own.

If you can't grow up and post like an adult, don't post. If you want a longer vacation, one can be arranged quickly.

I seem to remember a thread where Nobody and FN had issues. Plant muncher is also gone mysteriously after arguing with her, but that could be a coincidence.

Such a sweeping statement seems unfair. I'm relative sure you are getting regular pm's from certain people I have argued with.

 

[Veganite]

I'm relative sure you are getting regular pm's from certain people

You would be incorrect and possibly paranoid. I have not received any recent PM's from anyone concerning you.

I am not saying everyone is innocent of poor behavior on this forum. However, I try to deal with these things in PM's before contaminating someone's thread. So please don't feel singled out.

Furthermore, the statement is more than fair considering your recent given posting history. I mean, is what I'm asking so darn unreasonable? I'm just asking people to behave like adults....everyone! We have a great forum here. Why soil it for others with constant bickering and puerile behavior?

As far as contaminating the OP's thread, I will leave it open until someone complains, and as long as it stays civilized. So if you have something to say, say it.


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[Nekodaiden]

You would be incorrect and possibly paranoid. I have not received any recent PM's from anyone concerning you.

Just not recent. So in the past. Ok.

Furthermore, the statement is more than fair considering your recent given posting history. I mean, is what I'm asking so darn unreasonable? I'm just asking people to behave like adults....everyone! We have a great forum here. Why soil it for others with constant bickering and puerile behavior?

As far as contaminating the OP's thread, I will leave it open until someone complains, and as long as it stays civilized. So if you have something to say, say it.

Over moderate a forum means less people will post and less people will be real. That's true for any forum. If standards are applied, they should be done universally. I have had a post removed for calling someone a troll, while certain others are allowed to say people are trolling or making "troll like" posts. Anyone searching this forum can determine that.

I can refrain from calling people trolls if that's important. But the fact is your statement about the forum having no problems while I was gone is not true. You had to moderate in FN's thread about her vocational ambitions with member name: Nobody.

I am unsure where I crossed the line in this thread. If you cannot see that straw man attacks were taking place here, and what these are and why they are by definition deceptive (so someone is lying covertly), then it might benefit you as a moderator to educate yourself in this area.

Just for the record I am just fine with every one of FN's posts in this thread, including her calling me names. It gave me an opportunity to expose her when she started using excessive straw men in her replies. The fact is, you only stepped in when I pointed out what she was clearly doing and put the label to it that it deserves: lies.

 

[Veganite]

Asking people to behave like adults is hardly over-moderating.

If for once you could assume some responsibility, I might agree with you, but you are always in complete denial. Either it's moderator abuse, over-moderating, or you're pointing the finger at someone else. Try manning up for a change.

Furthermore, it's your own paranoia that's creating the rift at the moment. If you look at my first post in this thread, I was not directing it at anyone, specifically. Roger's comment wasn't directed at you personally either. So why are you taking it so personally? That was a rhetorical question, by the way.

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[Nekodaiden]

Asking people to behave like adults is hardly over-moderating.

If for once you could assume some responsibility, I might agree with you, but you are always in complete denial. Either it's moderator abuse, over-moderating, or you're pointing the finger at someone else. Try manning up for a change.

I said in the previous post I am unsure where I crossed the line. Your last post didn't give me any clue. The fact is, if name calling is an issue, these were not addressed until I called someone on what they were clearly doing. My original post in this thread addressed no one, but FN jumped all over it for whatever reason.

Furthermore, it's your own paranoia that's creating the rift at the moment. If you look at my first post in this thread, I was not directing it at anyone, specifically.

I didn't say that it was, but what follows...

Roger's comment wasn't directed at you personally either. So why are you taking it so personally? That was a rhetorical question, by the way.

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Is not true. Roger didn't need to address me personally to make it clear who he meant. I'm the only one in this thread making claims of misrepresented posts, straw men attacks and using the word lies. FN said I was calling her a liar and indeed I was, because that is what was happening. Roger eluded to the only person (me) in this thread that made the accusation. There is no need to state it explicitly as it's obvious. She was misrepresenting posts, this is called using straw men, and this is by definition deceptive. Acting deceptively is done by deceptive people ie: Liars.

Perhaps you might visit Wikipedia for a short course. If you don't like that the definition includes deception, there's not much more I can say.

 

[Veganite]

This is exactly what I am talking about. Again, you take no responsibility for any of it, but rather argue and/or point the finger at someone else. Why is it only once you get back, the trouble resumes?

 

[Nekodaiden]

This is exactly what I am talking about. Again, you take no responsibility for any of it, but rather argue and/or point the finger at someone else. Why is it only once you get back, the trouble resumes?

No trouble here, huh: https://veganforum.org/threads/need-career-advice-related-to-veganism.3381/page-2#post-18562

I was not able to post during this period and in fact never participated in that thread at all.

So what am I doing now? Arguing, or just exposing that you are heavily biased against me and it comes out in some really sweeping generalizations like the above that are not true?



What did I ever do to you?



You still haven’t identified what I’m supposed to have done wrong in this thread. If it’s an apology for calling out someone who was distorting my posts via the deceptive straw man technique it won't be forthcoming. I stand by that.



So if it’s something else?

 

[Veganite]

Oh, so you're completely innocent, I know. I can see trying to reason with you is pointless. You can think what you want, but you are in denial. I will not continue arguing, as this is going nowhere with you, but I can assure you I will be watching your posts very closely.

I've also told you before I have absolutely nothing against you, aside from your poor behavior on the forum. In fact I find much of your content sound and in some cases helpful to others. While you may accept people treating you in a similar way, it doesn't make it acceptable here. That's where you are going wrong. I am not going to let it slide either.

I will also add that I did not call you out in this thread until you started finger pointing. I made a very general request to everyone to post like adults. It was only after your post below this thread went south. You assume many things and point your finger without thinking. So don't blame me for turning this thread sideways.

Now presumably she or someone else has gone running to our Moderator to have this grave injustice of being called on her lies for what they are.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

I think the Impossible Burger and Beyond Burger are great news because they will make it easier for people to give up meat, and therefore lead to less animal suffering. They need to work hard at an even better version 2, and get the price down including more production locations worldwide (otherwise it's an expensive product and not very environmentally friendly if everything is being air freighted from US or traveling in refrigeration for ages on a ship). We also need to end meat subsidies and maybe tax meat to cut that price gap or eliminate it.

I especially like the Beyond Burger which I tasted on holiday in California. The moment I bit into it - the meat smell, taste and texture - I realized that this product, and others like it, could change the world and probably will.

If I was hosting a vegan dinner to get people into vegetarianism or veganism, I would want to have the Beyond Burger. If I was attending a BBQ, I would be tempted to bring this and get people to try it.

I think this is far more important than the negative health benefits, which I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt on. Just because it's a processed food doesn't make it that bad. Although probably a good idea to eat in moderation.

 

[poivron]

People who are twenty to thirty years vegan take precedence in my mind over a one year vegan who is clearly still figuring it out. I say that because I have seen your posts in the what I ate today threads and while some of your meals seem interesting there's a pattern of self denial I see there that I've noticed in orthorexic vegans on line. The problem with orthorexics is that they stop being vegan after like five years which shocks a lot of people. It's actually quite predictable that three to five years of sprouts and quinoa and smoothies eventually burns people out.

I rarely post here any more, but I cannot let this comment stand. Telling another vegan that they will inevitably go back to eating animals after a few more years is mean, self-serving and anti-vegan. No animals are better off because of this sort of behavior.

Having passed the five-year mark almost a year ago, my experience is that if one hasn’t been supplementing with vitamin B12, vitamin D, and iodine, after four years or so, one ends up feeling increasingly lethargic and out of energy. Within days of starting to take supplements, one starts feeling better.

Nekodaiden, I’m sure you will do just fine as a vegan for the rest of your life, let alone the next four years. I appreciate your posts, which are frequently informative. Just remember, “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” That quote by Eleanor Roosevelt was very helpful to me once I finally understood what it really means.

 

[Forest Nymph]

I rarely post here any more, but I cannot let this comment stand. Telling another vegan that they will inevitably go back to eating animals after a few more years is mean, self-serving and anti-vegan. No animals are better off because of this sort of behavior.

Having passed the five-year mark almost a year ago, my experience is that if one hasn’t been supplementing with vitamin B12, vitamin D, and iodine, after four years or so, one ends up feeling increasingly lethargic and out of energy. Within days of starting to take supplements, one starts feeling better.

Nekodaiden, I’m sure you will do just fine as a vegan for the rest of your life, let alone the next four years. I appreciate your posts, which are frequently informative. Just remember, “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” That quote by Eleanor Roosevelt was very helpful to me once I finally understood what it really means.

I didn't say he would, I said it's more common. Statistically speaking, the restrictive people are the ones who decide one day that they're starving and it can only be magically fixed by pasture raised eggs or grass fed beef. I've seen it so many times it's become disturbingly obvious that people who are overly obsessed with "whole foods" i.e. orthorexics would rather go back to eating animals than eat something they deem "semi-junk" or whatever. These people are more interested in personal purity than animals or the earth, so NO it's not "mean, self-serving and anti-vegan" to have a fake vegan radar.

That you're defending that frequently mean-spirited, trollish man is pure comedy. You go girl.

 

[Nekodaiden]

I didn't say he would, I said it's more common. Statistically speaking, the restrictive people are the ones who decide one day that they're starving and it can only be magically fixed by pasture raised eggs or grass fed beef. I've seen it so many times it's become disturbingly obvious that people who are overly obsessed with "whole foods" i.e. orthorexics would rather go back to eating animals than eat something they deem "semi-junk" or whatever. These people are more interested in personal purity than animals or the earth, so NO it's not "mean, self-serving and anti-vegan" to have a fake vegan radar.

That you're defending that frequently mean-spirited, trollish man is pure comedy. You go girl.

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[Veganite]

That you're defending that frequently mean-spirited, trollish man is pure comedy. You go girl.

Who are you calling mean-spirited and trollish? *rhetorical* This is exactly what this forum doesn't need. Despite your feelings, and despite the truth of it, this is not the way to handle it. All this name calling does is promote an unhealthy forum, where people bicker and argue, rather than post and discuss topics in an intelligent manner. I honestly hate censoring threads, but the name calling is going to stop, one way or another. This applies to anyone and everyone!

This thread has just turned sour enough that I'm going close it until further notice. Lou, this is your OP/thread, so if you feel there's something constructive left to add to this thread, PM me and I will possibly re-open it, otherwise enough is enough!


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