Hope for Vegans in Jesus

[beancounter]

Part of the problem is that religion/belief in the existence of a deity is drilled into peoples head at a formative age, and reinforced by family, friends and clergy, and society at large. As such, the belief becomes hard coded in the mind, and an inseparable part of the persons worldview.

They simply can not imagine a world without a deity.

I took a philosophy class in college, and the professor asked the question about belief in god.

I mentioned that I didn't believe in god, and one of my fellow classmates said "so you believe in the devil?"

A universe with an immortal entity running the show was such a part of her hard coded worldview, that she misinterpreted my statement to mean that I didn't believe in the teachings of god (vs. the existence of god).

So what is the ultimate point in all of this? The perspectives of Theists and Atheists are so different, that having a discussion is fruitless. One is looking for evidence, and the other is relying solely on faith.

One thing that does bother me about theists, is that even though they have no proof whatsoever to support their belief, many act as if their faith is the equivalent of fact.

They often point to evolution as "only a theory" when their faith couldn't even come close to meeting the rigorous criteria for a scientific theory.

 

[beancounter]

Personally, I am a Pastafarian! He boiled for our sins!

Yes, but have you been touched by His noodly appendage?

 

[David3]

I don’t go around telling Muslims that God doesn’t exist. I don’t make commentary on the prophet Mohammad. Where do you perceive atheist hostility towards Muslims in my words? My objection is to the faith- based claim that those who don’t follow Jesus are not saved.

I didn’t say you attacked Muslim culture. I am saying the atheist belief that there is no God to save us demeans Muslim culture at least as much as the claim of some Christians that Jesus does not save Muslims.

 

[Urban Gardener]

I disagree. A reasonable criticism of Weinstein was labeled “anti-Semitic”. That is surely protective.

Amy’s point was that the Roman Catholic Church went too far in singling out his films, deciding that they were anti-Catholic and attacking him because of that. (This was before he was accused of rape.)

To me, that doesn’t sound protective of him as a person. It’s commentary on anti-Semitism and the fraught relationship between Christians and Jews.

 

[David3]

I didn’t say you attacked Muslim culture. I am saying the atheist belief that there is no God to save us demeans Muslim culture at least as much as the claim of some Christians that Jesus does not save Muslims.

Possibly true. However, I don’t claim that God doesn’t exist; I lack the proof.

 

[Mostly Random Dude]

Yes, but have you been touched by His noodly appendage?

Of course! I am a pirate, after all!

 

[Huckleberry]

Part of the problem is that religion/belief in the existence of a deity is drilled into peoples head at a formative age, and reinforced by family, friends and clergy, and society at large. As such, the belief becomes hard coded in the mind, and an inseparable part of the persons worldview.

They simply can not imagine a world without a deity.

I took a philosophy class in college, and the professor asked the question about belief in god.

I mentioned that I didn't believe in god, and one of my fellow classmates said "so you believe in the devil?"

A universe with immortal entity running the show was such a part of her hard coded worldview, that she misinterpreted my statement to mean that I didn't believe in the teachings of god (vs. the existence of god).

So what is the ultimate point in all of this? The perspectives of Theists and Atheists are so different, that having a discussion is fruitless. One is looking for evidence, and the other is relying solely on faith.

One thing that does bother me about theists, is that even though they have no proof whatsoever to support their belief, many act as if their faith is the equivalent of fact.

They often point to evolution as "only a theory" when their faith couldn't even come close to meeting the rigorous criteria for a scientific theory.

I know atheists are wonderful because they tell me so themselves at every opportunity. Lol

Atheists engage in indoctrination.

The New Soviet League of Militant Godless

It sounds like a scriptwriter's dream. Here we have Russia, a vastly powerful country with a floundering democracy, facing the imminent threat of tyranny. That danger is personified by Vladimir Putin,

www.realclearreligion.org

Concentration camps and forced labor: China’s repression of the Uighurs, explained

There is more and more evidence of China’s human rights abuses in Xinjiang.

www.vox.com

Atheists can be irrational.

Look Who's Irrational Now - WSJ

www.wsj.com

And theists are on occasion reasonable.

The Existence of God (Fine Tuning) | Reasonable Faith

Conversation with William Lane Craig

www.reasonablefaith.org

How The Fine-Tuning Of The Universe Points Directly To God

By James Bishop| The Teleological Argument [TA] is arguably one of the eldest and yet most popular arguments for the existence of God. It argues that from evidence of design within the universe we can infer the likes of an intelligent designer. We can do so in the same way that we warranted in infer

reasonsforjesus.com

 

[Huckleberry]

Amy’s point was that the Roman Catholic Church went too far in singling out his films, deciding that they were anti-Catholic and attacking him because of that. (This was before he was accused of rape.)

To me, that doesn’t sound protective of him as a person. It’s commentary on anti-Semitism and the fraught relationship between Christians and Jews.

I’m surprised Weinstein still has defenders. Why this lame defense for a shameless bigot?

 

[beancounter]

I know atheists are wonderful because they tell me so at every opportunity. Lol

Atheists engage in indoctrination.

The New Soviet League of Militant Godless

It sounds like a scriptwriter's dream. Here we have Russia, a vastly powerful country with a floundering democracy, facing the imminent threat of tyranny. That danger is personified by Vladimir Putin,

www.realclearreligion.org

Concentration camps and forced labor: China’s repression of the Uighurs, explained

There is more and more evidence of China’s human rights abuses in Xinjiang.

www.vox.com

Atheists can be irrational.

Look Who's Irrational Now - WSJ

www.wsj.com

And theists are on occasion reasonable.

The Existence of God (Fine Tuning) | Reasonable Faith

Conversation with William Lane Craig

www.reasonablefaith.org

How The Fine-Tuning Of The Universe Points Directly To God

By James Bishop| The Teleological Argument [TA] is arguably one of the eldest and yet most popular arguments for the existence of God. It argues that from evidence of design within the universe we can infer the likes of an intelligent designer. We can do so in the same way that we warranted in infer

reasonsforjesus.com

Seriously? if your going to take that route, then I could list all of the violence Theist have committed throughout human history.

Preventing people from practicing their religion is not the same as the indoctrination of a young child. Apples and oranges.

BTW - The violence committed by certain groups has no bearing on whether deities exist or not. There is simply no correlation.

Your WSJ article is an opinion piece. Aside from that, assuming that's correct, how does believing in bigfoot prove god exists? Also a lot of QAnon conspiracy theorist are Christian.

As a side note. Belief in bigfoot is more grounded in reality than belief in a deity. That is, it is within the realms of biology and physics for a big furry man to exist, whereas it is completely outside the realms of physics for a deity to exist.

QAnon Conspiracies Sway Faith Groups, Including 1 in 4 White Evangelicals - Christianity Today

Survey examines belief in election fraud, the Deep State, and other theories on American politics.

www.christianitytoday.com

Further, three of the articles are from obviously biased sources.

Which Atheist tell you that they are wonderful every day? Or are you just blowing smoke? Arrogance has no bearing on whether deities exist or not. And there are plenty of arrogant Theists.

This is a vegan forum. Stop tossing so many red herrings...

 

[Mostly Random Dude]

I know atheists are wonderful because they tell me so at every opportunity. Lol

Atheists engage in indoctrination.

So far the only person engaging in indoctrination is you and you are obviously not an atheist

 

[Brian W]

Think of that mendacious war-monger Christopher Hitchens and his self-righteous Islamophobia.

Hitchens is poisonous to people from all religions, as is Dawkins.

 

[Brian W]

Seriously? if your going to take that route, then I could list all of the violence Theist have committed throughout human history.

Preventing people from practicing their religion is not the same as the indoctrination of a young child. Apples and oranges.

BTW - The violence committed by certain groups has no bearing on whether deities exist or not. There is simply no correlation.

Your WSJ article is an opinion piece. Aside from that, assuming that's correct, how does believing in bigfoot prove god exists? Also a lot of QAnon conspiracy theorist are Christian.

QAnon Conspiracies Sway Faith Groups, Including 1 in 4 White Evangelicals - Christianity Today

Survey examines belief in election fraud, the Deep State, and other theories on American politics.

www.christianitytoday.com

Further, three of the articles are from obviously biased sources.

Which Atheist tell you that they are wonderful every day? Or are you just blowing smoke? Arrogance has no bearing on whether deities exist or not. And there are plenty of arrogant Theists.

This is a vegan forum. Stop tossing so many red herrings...

It is not religion that causes the violence. Jesus for example said "put your sword away. Don't you know that he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword" He was very much against violence and in favour of compassion. What causes wars is politics - even when it wears a religious facade - and you are not going to tell me that you have never voted!

 

[beancounter]

It is not religion that causes the violence. Jesus for example said "put your sword away. Don't you know that he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword" He was very much against violence and in favour of compassion. What causes wars is politics - even when it wears a religious facade - and you are not going to tell me that you have never voted!

Religion has been a common tool used thought out history to justify wars.

 

[Brian W]

Religion has been a common tool used thought out history to justify wars.

Using something to justify wars does not make it a bad thing, it makes the people abusing it bad.

 

[silva]

Religion has been a common tool used thought out history to justify wars.

Religion has always been a tool of control, suppression and oppression. It's used by those welding power.
The niceties religion offers, the love, forgiveness, generousity, compassion, empathy, humility, are all there whether a god is worshipped or not.
Having to constrain these attributes by reward or punishment only makes them false and judgemental

 

[Urban Gardener]

I’m surprised Weinstein still has defenders. Why this lame defense for a shameless bigot?

No one is defending Weinstein.

See my comment upthread. I pointed out that he’s a bad example because he’s a serial rapist.

My point was that Amy didn’t seem to be expressing support for him either. This was in response to an anti-Semitic response to her post, which was way out of line.

 

[beancounter]

Religion has always been a tool of control, suppression and oppression. It's used by those welding power.
The niceties religion offers, the love, forgiveness, generosity, compassion, empathy, humility, are all there whether a god is worshipped or not.
Having to constrain these attributes by reward or punishment only makes them false and judgmental

Without a deity, there is no religion. You can't have one without the other. "Religions" without deities are philosophies.

 

[beancounter]

Using something to justify wars does not make it a bad thing, it makes the people abusing it bad.

Is it really realistic to believe that the two can be separated? (people and religion)

 

[Brian W]

Religion has always been a tool of control, suppression and oppression. It's used by those welding power.
The niceties religion offers, the love, forgiveness, generousity, compassion, empathy, humility, are all there whether a god is worshipped or not.
Having to constrain these attributes by reward or punishment only makes them false and judgemental

So you don't believe in having laws to protect people? I'm aware that those qualities exist without a god but just look around you at what humans have done to each other and to the animals and to the planet. Don't you think that needs to be addressed? Do you think God should just allow us to carry on like that? Everything that normal decent people long for is everything that God wants to achieve but if you are not with him, why should he include you in the rewards? The wages of sin is death - you have probably accepted that as normal anyway - the alternative is eternal life. God has given you the choice. Isn't that good of him?

 

[silva]

Without a deity, there is no religion. You can't have one without the other. "Religions" without deities are philosophies.

Yes.....
?

So you don't believe in having laws to protect people? I'm aware that those qualities exist without a god but just look around you at what humans have done to each other and to the animals and to the planet. Don't you think that needs to be addressed? Do you think God should just allow us to carry on like that? Everything that normal decent people long for is everything that God wants to achieve but if you are not with him, why should he include you in the rewards? The wages of sin is death - you have probably accepted that as normal anyway - the alternative is eternal life. God has given you the choice. Isn't that good of him?

I'm speaking of individuals. No one needs a belief to understand what works and what doesn't. Even little children don't need Santa or the Boogeyman.
I can't answer about something you believe in allowing us anything
As for what humans have done to each other, animals, and the planet, the vast majority has been under the worship and law of religion! Starting in the bible-which is fluid enough to be manipulated as needed.,
If someone complains that one version is bad someone offers another version they say is more righteous, and so on, and so on.
And sin--in religion that is a concept with many definitions and many different punishments
This is your thing, not mine