Let´s Make Veganism Less Strict

[FlandersOD]

I admit may be willing, to make some sort of degree on compromise;
but if it doesn't bring about the goals of said compromise it's unproductive at best, counter productive at worst,
not withstanding what ones compromised already.

Even then compromise would only make sense if it results in some hypothesized better situation.
Point where it clearly doesn't then I don't think it makes any sense to pursue it, even strategically.

I'm honestly at a point where I don't want to be friends with any more who are or happen to be carnists nor even reopen or revitalise such friendships. so not sure what it brings.
I've been mostly vegan for about 4 years now.
I'm at a point where the Carnist sophistry is itself exhausting.
atop of that if someone in my circumstances can go even 95% vegan, then anyone i'm ever likely to meet can also go free from meat, meat which by isn't good for oneself to begin with nor is it actually good for the planet(in-fact it's not good for ones health, and terrible for the planet).

 

[vegan89]

I'm honestly at a point where I don't want to be friends with any more who are or happen to be carnists nor even reopen or revitalise such friendships. so not sure what it brings.
I've been mostly vegan for about 4 years now.
I'm at a point where the Carnist sophistry is itself exhausting.

I am inclined to agree. When you have friends who are vegan already its nice to cut all of that usual bs arguments with carnists out of the conversation for a change.

 

[KLS52]

I could never cut out from my life, the friends/family who are not vegan. I would literally have no one.

 

[Brian W]

We should remember where we came from and give the same respect, care and friendship we would have expected for ourselves.

 

[Lou]

I admit may be willing, to make some sort of degree on compromise;

Compromise is good. Especially if there is a win-win situation.
its not really technically compromise if its more one sided. I also heard that a good compromise is when both parties are equally unhappy.

Someone here once pointed out to me that compromise can slide into appeasement. And then appeasement can slide into .... can't think of the right word but something like assistance.

I'm honestly at a point where I don't want to be friends with any more who are or happen to be carnists nor even reopen or revitalise such friendships. so not sure what it brings.

As usual I have to recommend Dr. Melanie joy to you. She does a great job in this area, pointing out that you too used to be a carnist. (why won't my spell checker learn carnist ?)

This video is sort of long, you might just want to read the book instead.

 

[vegan89]

We should remember where we came from and give the same respect, care and friendship we would have expected for ourselves.

Well, remembering where I came from... like yeah I didn't start out as a vegan; but I was always interested in the vegan perspective on things and changed my behavior as I started thinking about animal welfare issues. There are a lot of carnists who frankly aren't interested because they're scummy people.

They don't have the same interest in changing... so even if I cut them some slack to account for the fact that I didn't begin as a vegan myself, there's a fundamental difference between me and them: I was interested in changing my behavior to make the world better for others, and they aren't.

I don't think I should show respect to people who don't show the same interest in changing to make the world a better place when they clearly have the capability to do so.

 

[Brian W]

Well, remembering where I came from... like yeah I didn't start out as a vegan; but I was always interested in the vegan perspective on things and changed my behavior as I started thinking about animal welfare issues. There are a lot of carnists who frankly aren't interested because they're scummy people.

They don't have the same interest in changing... so even if I cut them some slack to account for the fact that I didn't begin as a vegan myself, there's a fundamental difference between me and them: I was interested in changing my behavior to make the world better for others, and they aren't.

I don't think I should show respect to people who don't show the same interest in changing to make the world a better place when they clearly have the capability to do so.

But there are areas of life in which you are not perfect. Should people who are better than you in those areas turn their backs on you as if they are somehow superior?

 

[vegan89]

But there are areas of life in which you are not perfect. Should people who are better than you in those areas turn their backs on you as if they are somehow superior?

If there are things I am doing that are bad, I don't think people should show respect for those bad choices. On the contrary, I would prefer they point out my bad behavior to give me a further opportunity and social incentive to change and become better.

Since the question involves whether I should "respect" committed carnists... lets look at the definition of respect:

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

"to hold in esteem or honor"

And if we look at the definition of esteem:
"to regard highly or favorably; regard with respect or admiration"

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

So to clarify here... the question is: should I view those who torment animals to please their taste buds with "respect"? Or in other words, should I regard such people "highly or favorably" or with "admiration"? Should I view their behavior as honorable?

Of course not.

 

[majorbloodnok]

If there are things I am doing that are bad, I don't think people should show respect for those bad choices. On the contrary, I would prefer they point out my bad behavior to give me a further opportunity and social incentive to change and become better.

The world isn't split into good choices and bad choices; what's a good choice for one may be a bad choice for another. You don't have to respect the choice someone's made to show the person themselves some respect.

Since the question involves whether I should "respect" committed carnists... lets look at the definition of respect:

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

"to hold in esteem or honor"

And if we look at the definition of esteem:
"to regard highly or favorably; regard with respect or admiration"

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

So to clarify here... the question is: should I view those who torment animals to please their taste buds with "respect"? Or in other words, should I regard such people "highly or favorably" or with "admiration"? Should I view their behavior as honorable?

Of course not.

You do like your dictionary, don't you!

In the same definition you linked to it states the second meaning of the verb "to respect" as "to regard or show consideration for". You, of course, selectively quoted the first definition but I don't see it as unreasonable that anyone might show consideration for others with differing views or stances. In fact, I would see it as a conspicuously admirable quality that they do so.

 

[Brian W]

If there are things I am doing that are bad, I don't think people should show respect for those bad choices. On the contrary, I would prefer they point out my bad behavior to give me a further opportunity and social incentive to change and become better.

We were in fact discussing people, not qualities. You can respect people even if you disagree with them, otherwise I would never talk to my brother because he is a conservative and I despise everything conservatives stand for.

 

[vegan89]

We were in fact discussing people, not qualities. You can respect people even if you disagree with them, otherwise I would never talk to my brother because he is a conservative and I despise everything conservatives stand for.

Do you respect plantation-owners from the Antebellum South of the United States who enslaved African people for personal financial gain? There are limits to what a person can do and still be respectable. (Of course, circumstances in which people do things matter...)

And don't a person's qualities make up who they are as a person? You act like these are separate things -- and they are. But they are also closely related.

 

[majorbloodnok]

Do you respect plantation-owners from the Antebellum South of the United States who enslaved African people for personal financial gain? There are limits to what a person can do and still be respectable. (Of course, circumstances in which people do things matter...)

And don't a person's qualities make up who they are as a person? You act like these are separate things -- and they are. But they are also closely related.

You are deliberately using the word "respect" in the sense of looking up to or honouring, which we have already discounted as only one definition.

Given the time and place you bring up regarded slavery as acceptable and legal, the only way to make changes was to change the system. It's naive and idealistic to think all the good guys benefited and all the bad guys were punished; in fact, many powerful slave-owners went on to become powerful influencers without slaves whether by change of opinion or law, some even contributing significantly to their society. In the context of the time, all were worth being shown respect even if only a few later showed themselves worthy of respect.

You don't have to respect someone to treat them with respect. In fact, showing respect to someone you disagree with says a lot about how much you respect yourself.

 

[Brian W]

And don't a person's qualities make up who they are as a person? You act like these are separate things -- and they are. But they are also closely related.

Then you are incredibly evil because your qualities are not as perfect as those of Jesus.

 

[vegan89]

Then you are incredibly evil because your qualities are not as perfect as those of Jesus.

I think you are oversimplifying the issue if you're arguing "all people are flawed, therefore all people are bad." The degree to which an individual is flawed matters. And the degree to which they are flawed relative to their peers from the relevant time period also matters.

All people are imperfect, and there are probably some good things in the personalities of most people. But some people's imperfections are relatively minor compared with others of their time period. And when you're an average person living in a first world society in the current year where there are so many vegan options available, the decision to consume factory farmed animal products on a regular basis and in substantial amounts is not a "minor" imperfection.

 

[majorbloodnok]

...
And when you're an average person living in a first world society in the current year where there are so many vegan options available, the decision to consume factory farmed animal products on a regular basis and in substantial amounts is not a "minor" imperfection.

Correction.

"....is not WHAT YOU would regard as a 'minor' imperfection."

Last time I checked, the eating of meat is still legal and is still regarded as normal, so by current society standards it's not an "imperfection" per se. If you want to change that, you have to change the system as I said before, and that means influencing those with power over the system. If you treat them with a lack of respect you're only making your struggle harder.

I hasten to add I'm not arguing for or against veganism. Showing someone a lack of respect, however, is rarely acceptable.

 

[Emma JC]

And don't a person's qualities make up who they are as a person? You act like these are separate things -- and they are. But they are also closely related.

IMO they are separate things and this point is very important in relationships of all types - eg when addressing an issue in a family or a spousal relationship it is important to be clear that it is the behaviour or action in dispute that is the problem. Calling someone an idiot or stupid is destructive, calling them to task for their behaviour is acceptable. The same criteria should exist when disagreeing with any one on any issue.

The person is separate from their behaviour.

Emma JC
Find your vegan soulmate or just a friend. www.spiritualmatchmaking.com

 

[majorbloodnok]

IMO they are separate things and this point is very important in relationships of all types - eg when addressing an issue in a family or a spousal relationship it is important to be clear that it is the behaviour or action in dispute that is the problem. Calling someone an idiot or stupid is destructive, calling them to task for their behaviour is acceptable. The same criteria should exist when disagreeing with any one on any issue.

The person is separate from their behaviour.

Emma JC
Find your vegan soulmate or just a friend. www.spiritualmatchmaking.com

Even more so when dealing with a child. Define the action as naughty and the child can choose not to do that action again. Define the child as naughty and it reinforces the idea that’s part of the child’s identity and is set in stone. One of my early lessons as a parent and one that has stood me in good stead ever since.

 

[Lou]

This reminds me of a rule I learned.
You can't call someone an idiot.
but you can tell that person they are acting like an idiot.

Up until just now I hadn't really understood the difference. And even now I wonder if the difference can be understood by "the idiots".

 

[vegan89]

Correction.

"....is not WHAT YOU would regard as a 'minor' imperfection."

Correct. Do you expect me to write "In my opinion..." before every statement of opinion? That would be a waste of time... not to mention bad writing.

Last time I checked, the eating of meat is still legal and is still regarded as normal, so by current society standards it's not an "imperfection" per se.

Sounds like something a slave owner from the southern US might have said in 1855. Regardless, what the law says about the issue doesn't really matter for purposes of this discussion because my statement was about morality and ethics.

 

[silva]

Correct. Do you expect me to write "In my opinion..." before every statement of opinion? That would be a waste of time... not to mention bad writing.


Sounds like something a slave owner from the southern US might have said in 1855. Regardless, what the law says about the issue doesn't really matter for purposes of this discussion because my statement was about morality and ethics.

By not stating it's an opinion completely changes the meaning, so it would be bad writing to not differenciate between your opinion and a statement of fact.
You do come across as believing your own ethics have a higher importance than others. There are too many injustices in this world to fight. To judge others based on their adhering to a common view of food will only hinder any effort to change, and will have your beliefs seen as ignorant.
While I find it hard to understand how so many truly brilliant people who spend their lives working improve life in so many different ways aren't vegan I will never let that diminish my respect for them--nor will I have less respect for vegans who do little else