Obama and Elie Wiesel to write book together

[rainforests1]

You don't need to preface with "respectfully."

RF has a long history of New World Order threads, the Federal Reserve being a vast conspiracy, Holocaust and Hitler apologias, etc. The one thread that runs through all of that is that Jews are to blame for many/most of the world's ills, with a sidenote of "Gee, it's not so bad to try to exterminate them."

For me, the New World Order would include the government, media, leaders of the military, and corporations working together to insure there's a lot of misery in the world. It would include many racial, ethnic, and religious groups. My one claim regarding Hitler was that it's possible many of the Russian POW's were not murdered. This is according to a book I read by a German who doesn't think very highly of Hitler. I've hardly said anything about Hitler outside of that comment, and I still think he was a lunatic. I don't recall ever bringing up the Holocaust. If you can show me evidence of these claims I've made I'd love to see it.

 

[ledboots]

But I'm out of this conversation. As I said, I have often found on-line discussions concerning Israel or Jewish people disturbing, and I don't think a lot of people even understand the ways that they might be being offensive to some. I thought the article laid out how to talk about a complicated issue without expressing it in a way that might be offensive, in fact it's so explicit it even lays it out in a table, so I thought it might be helpful. But I think that in a lot of cases it will probably have the opposite effect to what was intended and just give people more linguistic weapons.

I agree with this. Maybe it's a generational thing, but some things I see on the internet about Israel and the Jews make me so uncomfortable.

But I am older, and remember seeing numbers tattooed on people's arms, just regular people at the grocery or whatever, and my dad fought in WWII, so treating Jewish people badly doesn't seem as much of a history thing to me.

 

[Freesia]

That's a very defensive response. Maybe you could re-read my post for clarity, and then actually read my link, to see that I'm actually trying to address this issue i.e. ways that people can talk about Jewish people and Israel and still be sensitive to the issue of antisemitism.

My experience is that virtually no one who discusses this on-line who might be apt to get that charge or make the comment you just made is particularly interested in learning about why that charge is sometimes made and ways to talk about Israel or Jewish people without sounding antisemitic, but rather they prefer to go into defense mode and pout about it.

Regardless, I think it would be hard to claim that it isn't background noise in many on-line discussions concerning Israel or someone like Elie Weisel, referred to by the comment in this thread about reading the comments in the original article*, and to some posters' dubious past comments.


example: *

But any government gets similar criticism. In your example above Obama is being called Obongo, regardless of the fact that it is bad to insult people because of their race. Yet it is still ok to discuss Obama, his government and his policies. And I dont see why it should be so different to be able to discuss Israel, its government and polices. I dont believe anyone should have any sort of immunity to have their actions being scrutinised if they are governing, no matter which ethnic group or religion they belong to.

 

[Freesia]

And I find this all very annoying because I have Jewish friends and family members who are Jewish and intermarried into my family, and my young cousin is being brought up Jewish and has just had his Bar Mitzvah. And yet I see ordinary Jewish people as being quite seperate and distinct to the bad stuff that is happening in Israel. I suspect a lot of Jewish people dont approve of what is happening there either.

 

[Ansciess]

Yet it is still ok to discuss Obama, his government and his policies. And I dont see why it should be so different to be able to discuss Israel, its government and polices. I dont believe anyone should have any sort of immunity to have their actions being scrutinised if they are governing, no matter which ethnic group or religion they belong to.

And I find this all very annoying because I have Jewish friends and family members who are Jewish... I suspect a lot of Jewish people dont approve of what is happening there either.

I'm still not clear where anyone here said it's not o.k. to discuss Israel. What do you think the link that I gave you is about?

A lot of Jewish people don't like what's happening there. Israel is a very divided population. But if you have all these close Jewish friends and family members, you don't need to "suspect," you could just talk to them about it, no?

 

[FortyTwo]

Do you really think that people wouldn't make con. theories if the leading people weren't jews or related to them?

Ergh. Do you think people wouldn't make conspiracy theories about aliens landing and abducting them if it weren't really happening?

I'd really like you to find an instance where he said that.

I don't think he has in this thread. The point is the context, in terms of some of the threads he made on the other place. If you want to hunt through the VB Compost Heap and try to find the huge amount of threads that he's started about similar 'issues' then that's your gig.

 

[cornsail]

I agree with this. Maybe it's a generational thing, but some things I see on the internet about Israel and the Jews make me so uncomfortable.

But I am older, and remember seeing numbers tattooed on people's arms, just regular people at the grocery or whatever, and my dad fought in WWII, so treating Jewish people badly doesn't seem as much of a history thing to me.

I agree that anti-Jewish racism is a real problem and it makes me uncomfortable/disgusted when I see it on the internet too. Baseless accusations of racism also make me uncomfortable, though. So far in this thread I have only seen the latter. Maybe they aren't baseless based on previous threads, but I haven't seen any of the claims backed up with quotes and I don't get why vague descriptions of previous threads have now become the subject of this thread.

 

[Envy]

Ergh. Do you think people wouldn't make conspiracy theories about aliens landing and abducting them if it weren't really happening?

All I'm saying is that if person X is both powerful and a jew, would not the first one be a more powerful driving force for conspiracy theories to begin with?

Not that many conspiracy theories aren't anti-semitic in nature, but heck, I'd say that you'd be naive if you believe that they all are.

I don't think he has in this thread. The point is the context, in terms of some of the threads he made on the other place. If you want to hunt through the VB Compost Heap and try to find the huge amount of threads that he's started about similar 'issues' then that's your gig.

Well, it was not I who made the claim to begin with.

 

[FortyTwo]

Not that many conspiracy theories aren't anti-semitic in nature, but heck, I'd say that you'd be naive if you believe that they all are.

What are you on about? There are plenty of non-anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.

 

[Ansciess]

It's surprising how many lead back to Jews rule the world, are responsible for many of the covert ills of the world (and if you're new-agey you can throw in "reptilians").

 

[mlp]

For me, the New World Order would include the government, media, leaders of the military, and corporations working together to insure there's a lot of misery in the world. It would include many racial, ethnic, and religious groups. My one claim regarding Hitler was that it's possible many of the Russian POW's were not murdered. This is according to a book I read by a German who doesn't think very highly of Hitler. I've hardly said anything about Hitler outside of that comment, and I still think he was a lunatic. I don't recall ever bringing up the Holocaust. If you can show me evidence of these claims I've made I'd love to see it.

You have in the past claimed that Holocaust numbers are vastly inflated, that Hitler was no worse than Churchill, that we should not have “interfered” with Hitler, etc. Most of those threads are on VB, of which I am no longer a member, and I have no interest in rejoining just to do a search of your posts. Frankly, I’m not particularly interested in convincing those with short memories and/or a tolerance for your views and/or a tendency to indulge bigotry to share my opinion of your views. You are a firm believer in Federal Reserve conspiracies, the New World Order conspiracy, and other conspiracies which have their root in anti Semitism and/or have a strong vein of anti Semitism. Even if I had read nothing else you have posted, that would be sufficient for me.

But any government gets similar criticism. In your example above Obama is being called Obongo, regardless of the fact that it is bad to insult people because of their race. Yet it is still ok to discuss Obama, his government and his policies. And I dont see why it should be so different to be able to discuss Israel, its government and polices. I dont believe anyone should have any sort of immunity to have their actions being scrutinised if they are governing, no matter which ethnic group or religion they belong to.

I don’t think that anyone has claimed that Israel should have any sort of immunity to having its actions scrutinized. However, the situation in the Middle East is a very complex one – there have been, and there continue to be, injustices and evils perpetrated by both sides. Anyone who claims that the fault is only on one side is emotionally partisan to an extreme.

 

[mlp]

That would depend on what the particular disagreement happened to be wouldn't it? I know you have made clear that you're strongly opposed to the attitude of "everyone's opinion should be respected" and that you wouldn't want to associate yourself with certain points of view. Also, there is a difference between finding common ground with someone you have to work with and writing a book about friendship with someone. The suggestion that East Jerusalem should be illegally settled by Israel due to Jerusalem being mentioned a lot in religious scriptures is something I disagree with very strongly.

BTW, my reaction was not "oh no, Obama is palling around with someone he strongly disagrees with. " It was more like "Oh geez, how much does Obama actually support the same things as this guy?"

*Shrug.* It wouldn't bother me if Obama co-wrote a book with the Pope, even though I strongly disagree with the Pope's positions on choice, contraception, women's issues generally, homosexuality, plus a whole host of other Catholic teachings, policies and stances on social issues. If the book was about their agreement on such issues, yes, that would bother me. But if it were about their friendship or their mutual love of medieval religious music or whatever (which is what we know about this proposed Obama-Wiesel book - nothing at all at this point), I wouldn't find it worth commenting on, much less be disturbed by it.

I think you and I just have vastly different tolerances in ways that makes it difficult for me to understand you and probably vice versa. For example, I have difficulty reconciling your willingness to address pretty extensive homophobia, such as HJ's, as though it's "an opinion to be respected" with your distress over Obama co-authoring a book with Wiesel.

 

[FortyTwo]

It's surprising how many lead back to Jews rule the world, are responsible for many of the covert ills of the world (and if you're new-agey you can throw in "reptilians").

Yay! I'm technically not the first one to mention it this time!

For example, I have difficulty reconciling your willingness to address pretty extensive homophobia, such as HJ's, as though it's "an opinion to be respected" with your distress over Obama co-authoring a book with Wiesel.

I remember HJ. My interactions with him were probably the most fun I had on all of VB. I'm pretty sure that I specifically changed my avatar to Kurt and Blaine in bed together because I had gotten into a debate with him in some thread, and although he claimed he was being tolerant, I could feel him inching away from his computer screen every time I posted.

 

[mlp]

I remember HJ. My interactions with him were probably the most fun I had on all of VB. I'm pretty sure that I specifically changed my avatar to Kurt and Blaine in bed together because I had gotten into a debate with him in some thread, and although he claimed he was being tolerant, I could feel him inching away from his computer screen every time I posted.

LOL

 

[cornsail]

I think you and I just have vastly different tolerances in ways that makes it difficult for me to understand you and probably vice versa. For example, I have difficulty reconciling your willingness to address pretty extensive homophobia, such as HJ's, as though it's "an opinion to be respected" with your distress over Obama co-authoring a book with Wiesel.

What?? I don't remember ever posting anything about respecting homophobia or havocjohn. HJ is one of the few posters I've been consciously rude to. And I'm not distressed over Obama co-authoring a book with Wiesel, all I said was I don't see it as encouraging/don't see it as a good sign.

 

[Envy]

What are you on about? There are plenty of non-anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.

Well, yes.

Specifically those involving NWO and similar stuff.

You have in the past claimed that Holocaust numbers are vastly inflated, that Hitler was no worse than Churchill, that we should not have “interfered” with Hitler, etc. Most of those threads are on VB, of which I am no longer a member, and I have no interest in rejoining just to do a search of your posts. Frankly, I’m not particularly interested in convincing those with short memories and/or a tolerance for your views and/or a tendency to indulge bigotry to share my opinion of your views. You are a firm believer in Federal Reserve conspiracies, the New World Order conspiracy, and other conspiracies which have their root in anti Semitism and/or have a strong vein of anti Semitism. Even if I had read nothing else you have posted, that would be sufficient for me.

So you make boisterous claims about other persons without anything to back it up with?

 

[rainforests1]

You have in the past claimed that Holocaust numbers are vastly inflated, that Hitler was no worse than Churchill, that we should not have “interfered” with Hitler, etc. Most of those threads are on VB, of which I am no longer a member, and I have no interest in rejoining just to do a search of your posts. Frankly, I’m not particularly interested in convincing those with short memories and/or a tolerance for your views and/or a tendency to indulge bigotry to share my opinion of your views. You are a firm believer in Federal Reserve conspiracies, the New World Order conspiracy, and other conspiracies which have their root in anti Semitism and/or have a strong vein of anti Semitism. Even if I had read nothing else you have posted, that would be sufficient for me.

I don't recall ever claiming that Holocaust numbers are inflated on VB. I'll look it up soon. Morally I think Churchill is one of the worst world leaders ever so I don't see how comparing a person to Churchill means much of anything. I don't think we should be getting involved in other countries' wars so that includes a lot more than just Germany. What are these other conspiracies you're talking about?

 

[FortyTwo]

Well, yes.

Specifically those involving NWO and similar stuff.

No, those are pretty deeply rooted in - whatever, talk to mlp about it, she knows more than I do.

 

[FortyTwo]

how comparing a person to Churchill

a person

Hitler

 

[Second Summer]

No, those are pretty deeply rooted in - whatever, talk to mlp about it, she knows more than I do.

The Jews are only one of the groups accused of trying to bring about the NWO. Others include the Freemasons, the Illuminati, people in league with the Devil, ex-Nazis/neo-Nazis and (as mentioned) space aliens.