Should we censor/avoid offensive words?

[Freesia]

One reason I remain wary is this: We used to have the 'N' word.

No, "we" didnt 'used to have the N word', bigots used to have the N word, and many still do.

 

[beancounter]

Mod Post

Please keep this thread civil, and no passive aggressive attacks or name calling, or attempts to provoke others..

 

[Clueless Git]

No, "we" didnt 'used to have the N word', bigots used to have the N word, and many still do.

According to the African American Registry (article quoted below worth reading in full) 'we' did indeed used to have the 'N' word.

The history of the word nigger is often traced to the Latin word niger, meaning Black. This word became the noun, Negro (Black person) in English, and simply the color Black in Spanish and Portuguese. In early modern French, niger became negre and, later, negress (Black woman) was unmistakably a part of language history.

http://www.aaregistry.org/historic_events/view/nigger-word-brief-history

From Race and History, still on 'pre-corruption' origin/use of the word ...

THE ORIGINAL MEANING OF THE "N" WORD HAD A CONNOTATION CONNECTED TO THE GODS

The word "nig..." used to be the most revered and sacred word in the universe. It was the "devine epithet," and the people who began using the mother of all words that originated from this word which was sullied by the British, were the ancient Egyptians or better, the Khemites, who called their land, "Khemet" or "The Black Land," and also used the name, "Ta-merri" or "The Beloved Land."
THE WORD "N-G-R" MEANS "GOD" IN ANCIENT EGYPTIAN
The father of the "n" word was the word used by the ancient Egyptians for "God." That word was "N-g-r" and as one can see, there are no vowels in this word. In the ancient African and even the present African languages (the Afro-Asiatic linguistic family) vowels such as "a,e,i,o,u" are not found in many translations, particularly of ancient Hebrew and Egyptian languages.
In the translation of ancient Egyptian and Hebrew (which is heavily influenced by Egyptian), one will not always find vowels, therefore, very few people will realize that the word for God, which is "N-g-r" pronounced "en-ger" was the Egyptian word for God. In fact, the Egyptian word for "nature," is also the word used for God. That word is "ntyr," (pronounced net-jer." Now prounce the word "nigg.." and the word "net-jer," and one sees the clear connection.
MANY AFRICAN WORDS DENOTING PEOPLE OR IMPORTANT PEOPLE STARTS WITH "N"
In many African languages particularly the Niger-Congo language family. Words that connects with people, Gods, and groups begin with "n" and that word is always the first word. For instance, the word "Nkosi" in Xhosa is "God." The word "Ndaba," in another South African language is "counsil" (or gathering of elders). Many common names also begin with "N".

And, lastly, a further snippet from the AAR that quite nicely sums up one of the main points I was trying to make before things got a tad fractious ...

Another interesting and confusing experience in American speech is the use of nigger by African Americans....

The reality is that many of these uses can be heard in present-day African-American society. Herein lies part of the difficulty: The word, nigger, endures because it is used over and over again, even by the people it insults. Writer Devorah Major said, "It's hard for me to say what someone can or can't say, because I work with language all the time, and I don't want to be limited.

Point being simply that is a victory for bigotry when bigotry is allowed to corrupt and limit our use of language.

I'm not much into handing victories over to bigots is all I was basicaly saying.

 

[ledboots]

CG, I cordially invite you to visit Detroit, Harlem, Chicago, or St Petersburg, Florida, and share your thoughts on the n word being a compliment.

 

[beancounter]

the "N' word is odd in that it has a different meaning depending on whose saying it.

white to black, it's an insult.
black to black, it can be anywhere from neutral to a term of endearment.

 

[Clueless Git]

CG, I cordially invite you to visit Detroit, Harlem, Chicago, or St Petersburg, Florida, and share your thoughts on the n word being a compliment.

But, but I have no thoughts on it being a compliment Ledders.

What on earth did I say that makes you think I did?

the "N' word is odd in that it has a different meaning depending on whose saying it.

white to black, it's an insult.
black to black, it can be anywhere from neutral to a term of endearment.

Personal experience (my own kids are mixed race) leads me to believe that in certain contexts the N-word can be more offensive when used black to black than when used white to black, BC.

Guess in those instances that the intent is the important thing.

I'm also becoming increasingly suspicious that things may vary from one side of the pond to the other.

 

[das_nut]

No, "we" didnt 'used to have the N word', bigots used to have the N word, and many still do.

Not just bigots. Back in the day, the word appears to be used pretty casually. I've heard: "black people are just the same as everyone else and are just trying to live their lives". Which isn't a bigoted statement at all, but they didn't use "black people" when they said it.

 

[das_nut]

No, "we" didnt 'used to have the N word', bigots used to have the N word, and many still do.

It was actually used as a non-offensive term at one time.

From Wikipedia: (spoilers for the N-word usage)

Spoiler

The variants neger and negar, derive from the Spanish and Portuguese word negro (black), and from the now-pejorative French nègre (negro). Etymologically, negro, noir, nègre, and nigger ultimately derive from nigrum, the stem of the Latin niger (black) (pronounced [ˈniɡer] which, in every other grammatical case, grammatical gender, and grammatical number besides nominative masculine singular, is nigr-, the r is trilled).

In the Colonial America of 1619, John Rolfe used negars in describing the African slaves shipped to the Virginia colony.[2] Later American English spellings, neger and neggar, prevailed in a northern colony, New York under the Dutch, and in metropolitan Philadelphia's Moravian and Pennsylvania Dutch communities; the African Burial Ground in New York City originally was known by the Dutch name "Begraafplaats van de Neger" (Cemetery of the Negro); an early US occurrence of neger in Rhode Island, dates from 1625.[3] An alternative word for African Americans was the English word, "Black", used by Thomas Jefferson in his Notes on the State of Virginia. Among Anglophones, the word nigger was not always considered derogatory, because it then denoted "black-skinned", a common Anglophone usage.[4] Nineteenth-century English (language) literature features usages of nigger without racist connotation, e.g. the Joseph Conrad novella The Nigger of the 'Narcissus' (1897). Moreover, Charles Dickens and Mark Twain created characters who used the word as contemporary usage. Twain, in the autobiographic book Life on the Mississippi (1883), used the term within quotes, indicating reported usage, but used the term "negro" when speaking in his own narrative persona.[5]

I wonder if part of the move from non-offensive to offensive was due to those in power who were racist using the term more often than those who are not racist. Maybe, after a time, the word becomes associated with racists and becomes offensive. Note the same with "Negro". If someone started talking about the "Negroes", I'd get a racist vibe. Yet the word was clearly at one time considered normal usage, even by black Americans, and still shows up in weird locations like the UNCF.

 

[beancounter]

Note the same with "Negro". If someone started talking about the "Negroes", I'd get a racist vibe. Yet the word was clearly at one time considered normal usage, even by black Americans, and still shows up in weird locations like the UNCF.

Yea, you often see "negro" on the same document that includes "caucasian" and "mongoloid".

 

[das_nut]

Is "caucasian" offensive now?

 

[beancounter]

Is "caucasian" offensive now?

How did you interpret my comment that way?

I'm simply saying that forms that include negro, usually also have other older/infrequently used race descriptive terms.

 

[Mischief]

Not just bigots. Back in the day, the word appears to be used pretty casually. I've heard: "black people are just the same as everyone else and are just trying to live their lives". Which isn't a bigoted statement at all, but they didn't use "black people" when they said it.

Yeah, I've heard statements like that too, followed by, "but I wouldn't want my daughter to marry one" and other similar sentiments. I have never, ever, heard "the n word" used by a white person without an underlying racial bigotry being expressed, other than when quoting someone, or, in more recent years, in an effort to appear hip. My memory goes back to the 1950's.

I suspect some of you are too young to have an understanding of the reality of day to day expression prior to the last few decades, and others are intentionally being obtuse to further whatever your own personal agendas of self justification might be. On the other hand, I still continue to underestimate the pervasiveness of sheer ignorance.

 

[das_nut]

How did you interpret my comment that way?

I was asking. I just don't know anymore which words are now non-PC.

Yeah, I've heard statements like that too, followed by, "but I wouldn't want my daughter to marry one" and other similar sentiments. I have never, ever, heard "the n word" used by a white person without an underlying racial bigotry being expressed, other than when quoting someone, or, in more recent years, in an effort to appear hip. My memory goes back to the 1950's.

I've heard it without a bigoted statement following it.

 

[Mischief]

I've heard it without a bigoted statement following it.

And from someone who wouldn't mind if his daughter married one? Wow.

 

[das_nut]

And from someone who wouldn't mind if his daughter married one? Wow.

Never asked him about that, so I can't say.

He did state that they are just like other folks.

 

[Envy]

I've read that it has been used as somewhat of a neutral word in Sweden.

 

[Pirate]

It seem to me that people who whine and complain about the "pc police" really just want to be as hurtful and mean as possible, and display prejudice* and have the privilege of not being called out on it. When they are called out, it's "omg I'm being discriminated against! Free speech!" Give me a ****ing break.

This.

It doesn't take too much time and effort to retrain yourself not to use a word. If someone is being offended by it, why not just stop using it?

Also on a side point, a lot of "banned PC words" are just urban legends (probably invented by the Daily Mail). Such as Baa Baa Black sheep, it was never actually banned.

 

[Mischief]

I would need an awfull lot of convincing that changing the names of vunerable segments does anything of significance for individuals within those those vunerable segments at all.

I guess you haven't actually had a close relationship with a developmentally disabled person then, or you wouldn't be oblivious to the fact about how much they are hurt by having the word "retard" thrown about.

It shouldn't take actually knowing such individuals to be aware of the effect; a modicum of understanding, not to mention empathy, should be all that's necessary, but those seem to be in short supply.

 

[beancounter]

IMO, context and intent are more important than words themselves.

 

[Clueless Git]

My memory goes back to the 1950's.

You may have to go back to the pre 1800's for the word to have been in common use without racist connotations.