Should we censor/avoid offensive words?

[beancounter]

Years ago on the other board, I dared to say "handicapped" instead of "physically disadvantaged" in an analogy I was using on another topic. I was using the word neutrally, not as part of an intentional insult. Shortly therafter, two foaming at the mouth PC police started verbally clawing at me, accusing me of all sorts of things, and assorted verbal abuse.

A reaction that was completely unjustified given the context and intent. Since that incident, I've had a very low opinion of the PC police.

It's just a certain type of person who likes to shame and control others, as well as seek any opportunity to feel holier-than-thou.

 

[Clueless Git]

IMO, context and intent are more important than words themselves.

Wisest post of the 'debate' ( ) so far

 

[AeryFairy]

IMO, context and intent are more important than words themselves.

Yes, logically, this should be the case... However, regardless of how irrational other people feel it is, some words/terms just have incredibly negative associations to people/groups of people. And if someone hears you use a term (even with the best of intentions) and asks you to stop due to the term's negative association, and you carry on doing it anyway, it's going to seem like the intent is to offend or disregard that person's opinion. It becomes part of the context.

And often, the person whose opinion you are disregarding will be incredibly used to being dismissed, and the word you are using is a symbol of every time they have been dismissed before that.

 

[Second Summer]

My probably very simplistic stance is that yes, we should censor some words, and avoid using certain other words, at least in certain contexts. Exactly which words to censor or avoid depend on the sentiment of the particular community. We should strive to allow as many words as possible while still feeling moderately comfortable. The n word is clearly one of those words that just need to be censored. Other words could be allowed but discouraged, so that it's still possible to be an *******, but without making people want to punch you in the teeth.

 

[beancounter]

Yes, logically, this should be the case... However, regardless of how irrational other people feel it is, some words/terms just have incredibly negative associations to people/groups of people. And if someone hears you use a term (even with the best of intentions) and asks you to stop due to the term's negative association, and you carry on doing it anyway, it's going to seem like the intent is to offend or disregard that person's opinion. It becomes part of the context.

And often, the person whose opinion you are disregarding will be incredibly used to being dismissed, and the word you are using is a symbol of every time they have been dismissed before that.

I never said that I repeated the word, nor was I asked (in any sane or rational way) to stop using it.

But how far is this going to go? I think most people are aware of the offense the "n" word brings. But how is anyone who isn't a PC devote supposed to know every word? And as someone mentioned earlier, the list keeps on growing, and growing, and growing. "Terms are subject to change without notice'...

I mean it's everything from "pet" (animal companion) to garbage man (sanitation engineer). From my perspective, it's gone off the deep end.

 

[AeryFairy]

I never said that I repeated the word, nor was I asked (in any sane or rational way) to stop using it.

But how far is this going to go? I think most people are aware of the offense the "n" word brings. But how is anyone who isn't a PC devote supposed to know every word? And as someone mentioned earlier, the list keeps on growing, and growing, and growing. "Terms are subject to change without notice'...

I mean it's everything from "pet" (animal companion) to garbage man (sanitation engineer). From my perspective, it's gone off the deep end.

You aren't supposed to know - there isn't a list to consult or anything. It's as simple as listening to the people these words affect. If someone with a career in waste disposal doesn't want to be called a garbage man, I won't call them one. I don't feel that's any kind of political correctness gone mad.

 

[das_nut]

Yes, logically, this should be the case... However, regardless of how irrational other people feel it is, some words/terms just have incredibly negative associations to people/groups of people. And if someone hears you use a term (even with the best of intentions) and asks you to stop due to the term's negative association, and you carry on doing it anyway, it's going to seem like the intent is to offend or disregard that person's opinion. It becomes part of the context.

Pardon me, but the word "negative" sounds too much like the N word to me. Please stop using it. It brings up harmful associations.

And often, the person whose opinion you are disregarding will be incredibly used to being dismissed, and the word you are using is a symbol of every time they have been dismissed before that.

I am sure you won't dismiss my opinion about the use of the "n----ive" word.



(Yes, I am joking. But there have been people who have received a lot of flack for even using words that sounds similar to the N-word.)

 

[Mischief]

You may have to go back to the pre 1800's for the word to have been in common use without racist connotations.

Of course, back then black people were considered the equal of whites in every regard. people married, went to school together, worked side by side, etc., without any regard for race at all. A pre-racist utopia.

 

[Mischief]

You aren't supposed to know - there isn't a list to consult or anything. It's as simple as listening to the people these words affect. If someone with a career in waste disposal doesn't want to be called a garbage man, I won't call them one. I don't feel that's any kind of political correctness gone mad.

Exactly.

And for those who complain about PC run amok: some years ago, I was in a meeting, and had repeatedly sommented "that would be a black mark against us." An African American member of the team said, "why do people have to say 'black mark'?" Now, I hadn't meant anything by it, but I could see that it obviously bothered him on some level. It was an easy thing to accommodate him; in fact, it saved me a word. I just started saying "a mark against us." I'm not sure what's so difficult about that.

I enjoy using some old English swear words, but I know they upset some people, so when I'm around people I don't know well, I refrain. It's a matter of courtesy.

It doesn't actually take any effort to be courteous rather than being an *******.

 

[beancounter]

If someone with a career in waste disposal doesn't want to be called a garbage man, I won't call them one. I don't feel that's any kind of political correctness gone mad.

It's been my experience that the people who are most offended by a certain word, are not the ones for whom the word was meant to decribe.

It's usually a third person who feels compeled to "defend" the person who is the subject of the "offending" word.

 

[beancounter]

Exactly.

And for those who complain about PC run amok: some years ago, I was in a meeting, and had repeatedly sommented "that would be a black mark against us." An African American member of the team said, "why do people have to say 'black mark'?" Now, I hadn't meant anything by it, but I could see that it obviously bothered him on some level. It was an easy thing to accommodate him; in fact, it saved me a word. I just started saying "a mark against us." I'm not sure what's so difficult about that.

I enjoy using some old English swear words, but I know they upset some people, so when I'm around people I don't know well, I refrain. It's a matter of courtesy.

It doesn't actually take any effort to be courteous rather than being an *******.

You example involves a reasonable and calm person. In such a case, when requested, I would use an alternative word too.

The PC police however, are anything but calm and rational, and their motivations often revolve around shaming, controlling and feeling a warm and fuzzy sense of holier than thou-ness.

IMO, PC has crossed the line from politness and courtesy to something approching sinister (from a wolf in sheeps clothing perspective)

 

[Mischief]

Well, in the case of this thread and what prompted it, it seems that someone is intent on justifying his continued use of one or more words that others have pointed out are offensive. It would seem that the controlling is on the other foot, so to speak.

 

[Freesia]

But how far is this going to go? I think most people are aware of the offense the "n" word brings.

This is the problem though. A lot of people still use it despite the offense it causes because they believe it is their "right". The recent case of a celebrity family caught using it.... they are not the only ones. It isnt just an extinct word, it is still being used, and by white people.

 

[Clueless Git]

Of course, back then black people were considered the equal of whites in every regard. people married, went to school together, worked side by side, etc., without any regard for race at all. A pre-racist utopia.

It does not require a pre/post/non-racist Utopia for any particular word(s) to be free of racist connotations, Mischeif.

Sole point I was making is that pre 1800's, pre racist hi-jacking, the N-word simply meant 'black-skinned' in the same way that Afro-America/Black British/Afro-Caribean/etc means black-skinned now.

The earliest origin of the word I could track down was the Egyptian 'NGR' which actualy meant 'God'.

If that information is correct then the origin of the N-word comes from a time when black skinned people were very highly revered.

 

[Clueless Git]

Oh my god. Why are people still trying to justify the use of that word?

It may be that this is the debate forum and some people are confusing justification with debate, Freesia.

M'personal understanding of debate is that arguments are posited, opposed and/or supported and then, on the basis of merit of argument, what is justified, and what isn't, is left for people to make their minds up on at the end.

M'personal undertanding of what debate isn't is people mud slinging and making posts that soley call for the discussion of the matter in hand to be closed down.

It can be fun and it can be educational. Don't knock it 'till you've tried it.

 

[Clueless Git]

It's usually a third person who feels compeled to "defend" the person who is the subject of the "offending" word.

Aye,

I think that's OK when the 'victim' cannot speak for themselves; Children, animals, mental/intelectual deficencies over and above a certain degree, etc ..

Possible inference of percieved inferiority (a key element of racism?) when we leap, uninvited, to speak on behalf of those who are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves.

Different matter if a smaller or disadvantaged group calls for some outside support though, obviously.

 

[Freesia]

It does not require a pre/post/non-racist Utopia for any particular word(s) to be free of racist connotations, Mischeif.

Sole point I was making is that pre 1800's, pre racist hi-jacking, the N-word simply meant 'black-skinned' in the same way that Afro-America/Black British/Afro-Caribean/etc means black-skinned now.

The earliest origin of the word I could track down was the Egyptian 'NGR' which actualy meant 'God'.

If that information is correct then the origin of the N-word comes from a time when black skinned people were very highly revered.

The thing is though, it is not up to you, as a white person, to speculate on the use of that word. You have heard people say it is a word which offends many people of colour, and that is all you need to know. You don't have to reflect on the etiology of the word or consider who was saying it in 1800. You just have to know now that that word is a no-no, and respect that.

 

[Mischief]

It does not require a pre/post/non-racist Utopia for any particular word(s) to be free of racist connotations, Mischeif.

Sole point I was making is that pre 1800's, pre racist hi-jacking, the N-word simply meant 'black-skinned' in the same way that Afro-America/Black British/Afro-Caribean/etc means black-skinned now.

And it's ridiculous to argue that, at a time where black skinned people were considered to be less than fully human, the "n word" had no negative connotations.

 

[Mischief]

The thing is though, it is not up to you, as a white person, to speculate on the use of that word. You have heard people say it is a word which offends many people of colour, and that is all you need to know. You don't have to reflect on the etiology of the word or consider who was saying it in 1800. You just have to know now that that word is a no-no, and respect that.

OMG! Are you actually saying that the feelings of other people might actually trump one's own personal ego?!?!

 

[das_nut]

And it's ridiculous to argue that, at a time where black skinned people were considered to be less than fully human, the "n word" had no negative connotations.

Would it also be the case that "African-American" or "Black" have negative connotations today? Or did we move to a post-racial society when I wasn't looking?