Should we censor/avoid offensive words?

[Clueless Git]

If a black person finds a word racist, and you don't, since the word is related to them and not you, their opinion trumps yours.

Well, yes and no.

If they find a word racist no matter which race uses it I would concede.

If not then I clearly have a racist on my hands and it's on with the show.

Today my Dad was talking about the origin of the word n*gger (in a resteraunt, lovely). My first thought: "Is Clueless Git secretly my Dad?".

Well, no and no.

 

[das_nut]

this is true. However, I think what Aeryfairy is saying is that the person the opinion is about's opinion will always trump yours.

This is clearly wrong.

Let me demonstrate:

I have an opinion on white supremacists.
White supremacists also have an opinion of themselves.

My opinion clearly trumps theres, at least here in reality.

 

[Spang]

It's clearly wrong to compare white supremacists, people who choose to be racist assholes, to people of color and other oppressed groups, people who were born that way.

 

[AeryFairy]

I have an opinion on white supremacists.
White supremacists also have an opinion of themselves.

My opinion clearly trumps theres, at least here in reality.

White supremacists are pretty much the exact opposite of an oppressed group, so it doesn't really fit what I was saying about listening to people regarding oppressions those people have experienced.

 

[cornsail]

^ Hey you were the one talking about opinions. It still stands though. If a black person finds a word racist, and you don't, since the word is related to them and not you, their opinion trumps yours.

What does it mean for an opinion to "trump" another opinion? If a black person tells me that using the n-word in reference to black people is not offensive, I would not change my opinion that it is offensive. Is this wrong?

This is clearly wrong.

Let me demonstrate:

I have an opinion on white supremacists.
White supremacists also have an opinion of themselves.

My opinion clearly trumps theres, at least here in reality.

Why is it clear that your opinion trumps their's?

It's clearly wrong to compare white supremacists, people who choose to be racist assholes, to people of color and other oppressed groups, people who were born that way.

I believe das_nut was questioning the validity of the logic behind "since the word is related to them and not you, their opinion trumps yours". If it's accurate reasoning then it should apply to all categories. I don't believe he was drawing a comparison between white supremacists and people of color.

For example (I see this kind of thing in internet discussions a lot):

A: "Stealing is wrong because it's illegal."
B: "That would mean going 1mph over the speed limit is also wrong."
A: "You can't compare speeding with stealing. They're totally different."

All that said, I don't think it's necessarily wrong to compare anything with anything. A lot of people seem to falsely interpret "compare" to mean something like "claim or imply that two categories are identical or very similar". But that isn't what it means. If a comparison is wrong it's wrong because it's inaccurate, not because of the two things being compared. Any two things/categories can be compared.

 

[Pirate]

White supremacists are pretty much the exact opposite of an oppressed group, so it doesn't really fit what I was saying about listening to people regarding oppressions those people have experienced.

Yeah exactly. I'm glad someone can understand what I'm saying (or is choosing not to nitpick). This is a thread about "minority groups" etc so it is common sense I am talking about those kind of words.

 

[Clueless Git]

Yeah exactly. I'm glad someone can understand what I'm saying (or is choosing not to nitpick). This is a thread about "minority groups" etc so it is common sense I am talking about those kind of words.

You'se missing a VERY important point, Liz.

Cornie and Das are explaining why the logic(s) being used are flawed.

Chucking flawed logic around in an argument is a bit like chucking bricks in a fight. The other fellahs just going to pick up your brick and chuck it right back.

 

[das_nut]

White supremacists are pretty much the exact opposite of an oppressed group, so it doesn't really fit what I was saying about listening to people regarding oppressions those people have experienced.

Do you honestly think if you started telling people that you thought Hitler was great, the Jews deserved to be gassed, and all non-white humans are inferior that you wouldn't get a great deal of oppression?

If your answer is yes, my advice to you is move, and move now, because you're in one screwed up part of the world.

Why is it clear that your opinion trumps their's?

I'd like to think that the evidence shows that Caucasians are not some superior race, and that those who hold such beliefs to the contrary are mistaken.

 

[cornsail]

I'd like to think that the evidence shows that Caucasians are not some superior race, and that those who hold such beliefs to the contrary are mistaken.

Agreed.

I was confused because you said your opinion of white supremacists would trump white supremacists' views of themselves, which would be a bit different from your/their opinions on race in general.

 

[das_nut]

Agreed.

I was confused because you said your opinion of white supremacists would trump white supremacists' views of themselves, which would be a bit different from your/their opinions on race in general.

Well, my views on them do trump (in my opinion) their views on themselves.

I view them as mistaken, for the most part, either on the facts or the interpretation of the facts.
They view themselves as being right.

 

[AeryFairy]

Do you honestly think if you started telling people that you thought Hitler was great, the Jews deserved to be gassed, and all non-white humans are inferior that you wouldn't get a great deal of oppression?

The treatment one would likely get upon expressing those views is not opression.

 

[Clueless Git]

The treatment one would likely get upon expressing those views is not opression.

This is one of those allegorical bricks which can just be chucked back and forth that I was talking about.

Few see suppression of opinions they believe to be wrong to be as oppression.

All who's opinions are suppressed will see that as oppression.

The problem with opinions is that opinions are like butt-holes. Everybodies got one.

Any moral logic based on weight of personal opinion is unlikely to ever lead to owt more, nor less , than a "my/our butthole(s) are prettier than your butt-hole(s)" competition.

 

[AeryFairy]

No one see's suppression of opinions they believe to be wrong to be opression.

All who's opinions are suppressed see that as oppression.

How would you define oppression?

 

[Clueless Git]

They view themselves as being right.

Aye,

And if how highly we value our own opinion (and the opinions of those who agree with our opinions) is any basis of right; Then, by our own logic, right they must be.

 

[Clueless Git]

How would you define oppression?

From an "opinion has value" PoV ...

Oppression is anything that in any person(s) opinion (because opinion has value) makes them feel oppressed.

That changes dramaticaly if opinion is given no value in moral equations, though.

To be oppression something then has to be unjust.

People of colour being allowed to use words that white folks aren't, for instance ..

One rule for all is just and one rule for some but another rule for others is not just.

Those who want justice (as opposed to just wanting to change the foot that wears the boot) have to be just.

 

[Envy]

I do know that people have been excluded from workers and tenants unions in Sweden for being active in certain political parties.

 

[kibbleforlola]

There's lots of unexamined privilege in this thread, yo.

 

[cornsail]

Few see suppression of opinions they believe to be wrong to be as oppression.

All who's opinions are suppressed will see that as oppression.

I dunno about other countries, but in the US people's opinions aren't really suppressed. They may cause intolerance and ostracization, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[cornsail]

There's lots of unexamined privilege in this thread, yo.

Yeah, none of us have ever walked in a white supremacist's shoes.

(hopefully)

 

[cornsail]

The problem with opinions is that opinions are like butt-holes. Everybodies got one.

I don't see it as a problem for my butthole that everyone else has one.