Specieism, racism, and sexism

[Freesia]

Praising his ethnic minority neighbours (for their kindness) without knowing the PC word of the day makes the man a racist?

I am sorry that he has been unwell. All the same though, he has been around a long time and seen a lot of history go by and he has even less of an excuse than a young person to use racist language, as he is old enough to have seen Martin Luther King Jr's speech firsthand, or see all the breakthroughs that have been made in race relations over the last 70 years.

If he is using racially charged terms to describe his neighbours, it seems he has some issues to face in those areas, and just saying, I know plenty of 70 year olds- the first Baby Boomers are turning 70 in fact and they are the trailblazers for the rest of us when it comes to race relations- they are the ones who set the stage for so many revolutions- so I have problems understanding how someone who is born in the early 1940s could have possibly missed a whole movement like that.

Unless your beloved Ann Chovie didnt have her reading glasses on and was actually talking to a 100 year old man, I find the story hard to understand.

 

[Clueless Git]

.. as he is old enough to have seen Martin Luther King Jr's speech firsthand ..

That's the one from when the PC word of the day was 'Negro'?

 

[Ann Chovie]

I have problems understanding how someone who is born in the early 1940s could have possibly missed a whole movement like that.
.

My parents were born in the 30's , when I introduced them to my Sikh boyfriend in 1970's they were still using what they believed to be the PC correct term 'coloureds' and recoiled at the term 'black' which they thought was not PC.

If at that point my boyfriend had taken this misunderstanding as a sign that they were racists our relationship would have been very short lived.

He however, had the wisdom to judge them by their actions and not by whether they had kept up with PC trends.

As a result we got married and they shared a good relationship for many years.

 

[Second Summer]

I fixed your post about that man for you.

Didnt have to add any words, just deleted some, did the trick.

I can see how words and language can offend, but one should try not take offence if the intent is clearly not racist.

 

[kibbleforlola]

Ah yes, the "magical intent" argument. The idea that someone didn't mean it that way, surely you know me better than that? It puts the responsibility on the marginalized person to not get offended and absolves the person reinforcing the marginalization from any responsibility. It almost becomes worse to have someone call you out for saying racist things than it is to actually say racist things.

In reality, marginalized people have every right to be offended and should not be made to feel bad for pointing it out. And the people saying " but I didn't mean it that way" should maybe shut up and take it as a learning experience.

 

[Second Summer]

Ah yes, the "magical intent" argument. The idea that someone didn't mean it that way, surely you know me better than that? It puts the responsibility on the marginalized person to not get offended and absolves the person reinforcing the marginalization from any responsibility. It almost becomes worse to have someone call you out for saying racist things than it is to actually say racist things.

In reality, marginalized people have every right to be offended and should not be made to feel bad for pointing it out. And the people saying " but I didn't mean it that way" should maybe shut up and take it as a learning experience.

Nothing magical about it. In both philosophy (ethics) and law, intent is an important consideration. When the intent is so clearly benevolent as in Chovie's story, then it seems a little over the top and lacking in generosity to label the old man a racist just because he doesn't know the currently accepted language. What is more, by using the "racism" term so liberally, the effect is to water it down to the point where it no longer carries any particularly negative meaning. Meanwhile, every time some poor old man, or a recent immigrant from eastern Europe etc. is caught being "racist", the real racists are having a field day, cheering and celebrating, gleefully anticipating the day when the "racists" become the majority.

 

[kibbleforlola]

Racist are the majority. And I think it's super harmful to try to codify "real" racism. Lots and lots of microagressions occur, and are even seen as acceptable behavior, because 'real' racism only happens at the macro level.

And you can recognize that something was not intended a certain way, while still recognizing that something you said was ( unintentional as it may be) harmful, and be more aware of your words in the future.

More on magical intent: http://www.shakesville.com/2011/12/harmful-communication-part-one-intent.html

Eta: that one, while still worth the read, focuses more on interpersonal relationships. This one talks about magical intent in relation to bigotry: http://freethoughtblogs.com/brutereason/2013/10/15/intent-just-how-magic-is-it/

 

[beancounter]

A person's intent can often be difficult to correctly assess.

Of course if you're the kind of person who is prone to knee jerk reaction, and always assumes the worst of people, well that in and of itself is an issue...

 

[Spang]

I have no idea why you're looking at one race as being worse than the others.

Slavery is the foundation of the United States (and capitalism). When slavery was allegedly abolished, it was replaced by black codes and Pig Laws, created by white people to maintain their superiority, which later became Jim Crow, again created by white people, which was later replaced by the prison-industrial complex, another white people creation.

Racism is prejudice plus power.

 

[Clueless Git]

Racism is prejudice plus power.

There is not one single dictionary that agrees with you on that one, Spang.

I'm off to make a suggestion in the debate rules rule thread.

 

[Blobbenstein]

I think the isms in the title can exist without a power imbalance. Once you have the power imbalance you have the ism oppression.
Speciesist oppression
Racial oppression
Sexist oppression.

Someone can despise a shark, while the shark is circling.

 

[Envy]

Racism is prejudice plus power.

Institutional racism is prejudice plus power.

 

[Clueless Git]

I think the isms in the title can exist without a power imbalance. Once you have the power imbalance you have the ism oppression.
Speciesist oppression
Racial oppression
Sexist oppression.

S'a VERY good point!

It leads to another possibly good point also ...

If a currently oppressed group is itself specieist/racist/sexist then what, other than changing the boot to another foot, is achieved by allowing them power?

 

[kibbleforlola]

Slavery is the foundation of the United States (and capitalism). When slavery was allegedly abolished, it was replaced by black codes and Pig Laws, created by white people to maintain their superiority, which later became Jim Crow, again created by white people, which was later replaced by the prison-industrial complex, another white people creation.

Racism is prejudice plus power.

Not to mention the destruction of Native Americans (did you know the first thanksgiving was actually to celebrate the massecre of the Pequots?) , our discusting treatment of Chinese rail workers, miscegenation laws, Japanese detainment camps, even mistreatment of Irish workers, who at the time weren't considered "Caucasian". Basically, if you weren't a WASP, you were screwed.

As for the definition of racism, spang is correct. Power is a key element. All of my professors - whose work centers around deconstructing -isms- would have agreed, and as a graduate of UNC Chapel Hill*, I stand by it. As for the dictionary not agreeing, did it ever occur that perhaps the dictionary is wrong? It was written by people, after all. People who might have biases, political motivations, or in some cases the language itself may be changing too fast to keep up with the printing process.

*I wonder if I can work this into every conversation? I won't even lie, I'm feeling pretty proud of myself for graduating.

 

[Freesia]

My parents were born in the 30's , when I introduced them to my Sikh boyfriend in 1970's they were still using what they believed to be the PC correct term 'coloureds' and recoiled at the term 'black' which they thought was not PC.

If at that point my boyfriend had taken this misunderstanding as a sign that they were racists our relationship would have been very short lived.

He however, had the wisdom to judge them by their actions and not by whether they had kept up with PC trends.

As a result we got married and they shared a good relationship for many years.

My grandmother was born in the 1920s and she knows very well what racism is. I find your belief that older people have spent their lives living under rocks and never seeing any news or experiencing any life.... very confusing.

 

[Freesia]

I can see how words and language can offend, but one should try not take offence if the intent is clearly not racist.

I will thank you, but I will have my own perceptions without somebody telling me how to feel.

 

[Envy]

All of my professors - whose work centers around deconstructing -isms- would have agreed, and as a graduate of UNC Chapel Hill*, I stand by it. As for the dictionary not agreeing, did it ever occur that perhaps the dictionary is wrong? It was written by people, after all. People who might have biases, political motivations, or in some cases the language itself may be changing too fast to keep up with the printing process.

The same would naturally go for yourselves, assuming that one can be objectively right in a semantic question.

Backtracing a bit, it seems that I've done just about the same, so I'll change it to "I think that institutional racism is prejudice plus power".

 

[beancounter]

I will thank you, but I will have my own perceptions without somebody telling me how to feel.

No one is telling you how to feel, they are simply expressing their own opinion.

 

[Ann Chovie]

My grandmother was born in the 1920s and she knows very well what racism is. I find your belief that older people have spent their lives living under rocks and never seeing any news or experiencing any life.... very confusing.

Not confusing at all really.

They knew very well what racism was too.
And they knew very well that they were not racists.

And in order not to appear so they watched the news to learn the correct PC terms. That's where they learnt "coloureds"

 

[Second Summer]

Racist are the majority.

What is the source of this claim? And how do you define "racists" here? Do you go by Spang's definition, that "Racism is prejudice plus power"? (To be fair, I'm not sure whether he meant it as an exhaustive definition, or just one example.) If that is your definition, how is the old man in Chovie's story a racist?

And I think it's super harmful to try to codify "real" racism. Lots and lots of microagressions occur, and are even seen as acceptable behavior, because 'real' racism only happens at the macro level.

People sometimes make mistakes, but I don't see how it's helpful or correct to lump honest mistakes in with the actions of racist lynch mobs.