News The Confederate Flag

[Second Summer]

The House of Representatives in South Carolina has voted to take down the Confederate flag from capitol grounds after a long and fractious debate.

The state House approval, by 93-27, follows a similar move in the Senate. After a final procedural vote, the bill will go to the governor for signature.

More: South Carolina votes to remove Confederate flag - BBC News (9. July 2015)

This seems to make sense, although it's a nice-looking flag and all, and is presumably important to the southern identity.

I'm a bit confused as to why they sometimes refer to the flag as the Southern Cross, since the constellation bearing that name (a.k.a. the Crux) generally is depicted with 5 and sometimes just 4 stars in it, and probably can't be seen from anywhere in the mainland USA. It was visible to the ancient Greeks, but has since moved below the horizon and is today only visible in the southern hemisphere.

 

[Jeremy]

Honestly, I've never heard of it called the southern cross. As for the southern crux constellation, it actually can be seen in the southern most tip of Florida and Texas, as well as Hawaii.

As for the confederate flag being southern heritage; sure if you don't mind your precious symbol of heritage representing TREASON!

 

[Second Summer]

Honestly, I've never heard of it called the southern cross. As for the southern crux constellation, it actually can been see in the southern most tip of Florida and Texas, as well as Hawaii.

That is interesting. It was probably visible even slightly further north back in the 1860s.

Lots of other flags depict the Southern Cross, though they look distinctly different from the various Confederate flag(s).
Flags depicting the Southern Cross - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Mischief]

"Southern Cross" refers to a popular version of flag that's often thought of as the Confederate flag, even though it was never the official flag. If you scroll down to the section entitled "Confederate Flag", you'll see a picture: Flags of the Confederate States of America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It has nothing to do with the constellation; it's a reference to the X shape that the stars on the flag take.


I'm glad SC has finally taken it down. It's a shame that it took the murder of eight people.

 

[Mischief]

Kudos to all who fought to get it taken down: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/u...ve-jenny-anderson-horne-flag-speech.html?_r=0

 

[Andy_T]

I am also very happy that they are taking it down!

 

[Second Summer]

It has nothing to do with the constellation; it's a reference to the X shape that the stars on the flag take.

I was trying to find out more about this yesterday. Certainly, references to the constellation in the context of the Confederate flags are few and far between. From the wikipedia page you mentioned:

Bagby, George (January 1862). "Editor's Table". Southern Literary Messenger. p. 68. The “Southern Cross” holds its place steadily in the Southern heart. It was in every mouth long before the war began; it remains in spite of all arguments against it. These arguments are ridiculous. First, we don’t see the Southern Cross in the heavens. Indeed! Do the British see the lion and the unicorn on the land or in the sea? Do the Austrians behold the double headed eagle anywhere in nature or out of it? What has seeing got to do with it? The truth is, we shall see the Southern Cross ere the destiny of the Southern master and his African slave is accomplished. That destiny does not stop short of the banks of the Amazon.[...]

Flags of the Confederate States of America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Of course, this can be interpreted to mean both that the southern cross of stars in their flags is fictional, as with the unicorn and the double headed eagle, or it could mean that it depicts a constellation which exists, but is not generally visible from their territory, as with the lion he mentioned.

And Jeremy is correct about the Crux being visible in the very southern outposts of the US:

To see all of Crux from the US, you have to be as far south as Hawaii, or the southern parts of Florida or Texas (about 26 degrees north latitude or farther south). Even from these spots in the US, you have a rather limited viewing window for catching the Southern Cross. It has to be the right season of the year. It has to be the right time of night. And you have to look in the right direction: SOUTH!

From here: Northern Hemisphere guide to the Southern Cross | Favorite Star Patterns | EarthSky

Anyway, I think if the South wants to make a new flag, they should make it look more like the constellation

 

[Mischief]

I don't think the South needs a flag any more than the North, the Midwest, the East or the West does.

 

[kibbleforlola]

Jsyk, the "southern cross" is not meant in anyway to reference the constilation, rather it's a Saint Andrew's Cross. Also, I've never heard an actual southerner refer to it as the southern cross, idk if that's a Yankee thing, or something else, but in the south it's either referred to as the Confederate flag, the confederate battle flag, or most commonly, the stars and bars.

 

[Second Summer]

Jsyk, the "southern cross" is not meant in anyway to reference the constilation, rather it's a Saint Andrew's Cross.

I'm not sure that is correct. From Wikipedia:

William Porcher Miles, designer of the Confederate Battle Flag never claimed it to be a St. Andrew's cross design, but rather a heraldic saltire without religious symbolism.

(This is stated without any citations, though.)

Also, from the Wikipedia article linked to previously:

Coski, John M. (May 13, 2013). "The Birth of the 'Stainless Banner'". The New York Times. New York: The New York Times Company. [...] "A handful of contemporaries linked the new flag design to the "peculiar institution" that was at the heart of the South's economy, social system and polity: slavery. Bagby characterized the flag motif as the "Southern Cross" – the constellation, not a religious symbol – and hailed it for pointing 'the destiny of the Southern master and his African slave' southward to 'the banks of the Amazon,' a reference to the desire among many Southerners to expand Confederate territory into Latin America."

 

[Scorpius]

I was in NEW HAMPSHIRE this afternoon and saw a big ol' pickup driving around with a Confederate flag flapping from the back of it. Um, dude, you're rooting for the wrong team.

 

[Jeremy]

I was in NEW HAMPSHIRE this afternoon and saw a big ol' pickup driving around with a Confederate flag flapping from the back of it. Um, dude, you're rooting for the wrong team.

LOL... That's funny... Waaaay up in Yankee land... *cough*moron

 

[Mischief]

In the Midwest at least, the Confederate flag is generally code for a certain type of attitude toward people who aren't white.

 

[Calliegirl]

There are a few pockets of skinheads here and you occasionally see the confederate flag. There's a huge one displayed next to one of the main highways.

 

[FortyTwo]

I was in NEW HAMPSHIRE this afternoon and saw a big ol' pickup driving around with a Confederate flag flapping from the back of it. Um, dude, you're rooting for the wrong team.

You should see upstate NY, it's basically Texas. I've seen at least five homes in my county alone proudly flying that racist-*** flag.

 

[Andy_T]

That reminds me, the movie "Selma" that I recently watched, is definitely worth watching if you are not sure about your position on this thread....

Not so much to do with that flag per se, but more with the mindset of (I am afraid, many) people in the South ...

 

[Spang]

The Confederate flag is all over the place here in east Tennessee. #shocking