Vegan vs. Vegetarian: More Differences Than Similarities? ft Gary Yourofsky

[Envy]

That I'm not a vegan probably is or should be one of my regrets in life, and it's not because of cognitive dissonance or ignorance; I know exactly what happens in most industrial facilities. But for me, and perhaps others as well, it's a kind of learned helplessness in addition to the very real problems that you face during the transition. Having enough nutrition, giving up on things which tastes good, convenience and even getting along with people socially. But at the end of the day, maybe you're just convincing yourself that it doesn't make any difference.

 

[Dedalus]

Per the amount the animal is alive, dairy and eggs produce more food so they would result in less, not more, suffering. Also dairy and egg laying hens, especially the cows, tend to be better treated than cows or chickens raised for meat.

At the risk of being blunt: this is complete ********. If anything - these animals suffer more and longer than animals raised for meat. And it all cases, the throat slashing at the end of the line is constant.

You're talking about what occurs on modern factory farms...my point was that this is not the only way to obtain eggs and dairy. As such what occurs on factory farms cannot be an argument against the use of dairy and eggs in general and there are many vegetarians that don't agree with what occurs on factory farms.

Of course it can be an argument. Factory farms or no factory farms - animals are still being exploited to appease the palet of one who consumes dairy and eggs.

 

[PTree15]

That I'm not a vegan probably is or should be one of my regrets in life, and it's not because of cognitive dissonance or ignorance; I know exactly what happens in most industrial facilities. But for me, and perhaps others as well, it's a kind of learned helplessness in addition to the very real problems that you face during the transition. Having enough nutrition, giving up on things which tastes good, convenience and even getting along with people socially. But at the end of the day, maybe you're just convincing yourself that it doesn't make any difference.

It's never too late! But seriously, people have different thresholds. Even though I think the entire world should be vegan, I think any move that lessens the suffering of animals is a good one. I, too, once continued eating dairy and eggs knowing full well what went on in those industries. I really have no room to judge.

 

[flyingsnail]

At the risk of being blunt: this is complete ********. If anything - these animals suffer more and longer than animals raised for meat. And it all cases, the throat slashing at the end of the line is constant.

Why do you think they suffer more? And the amount of time spent on farms isn't the critical issue here, rather the amount of food that can be created per hour of life. Dairy is more efficient than beef production, that translates into less environmental damage and more food energy created per hour the animal is alive. And dairy cows are, in most cases, better treated than cows raised for beef....the farmers have more of a invested interest in their health.

Of course it can be an argument. Factory farms or no factory farms - animals are still being exploited to appease the palet of one who consumes dairy and eggs.

Well I guess it can be one....its just a bad one. The conditions on factory farms can be used to argue against that form of dairy or egg production...but they aren't an argument against dairy or egg production in general. You can, and people do, produce dairy and eggs in other ways.

Suggesting that dairy and eggs necessarily involve animal exploitation is a different sort of argument, but if one thinks all animal exploitation should be avoided that is going to lead to the avoidance of pets, rescue animals, etc as well. Not to mention it would decimate our ability to grow nuts and fruits. This sort of argument makes more sense, I think, but I'm not sure how to make sense of the consequences.

 

[Scorpius]

 

[Clueless Git]

If anything - these animals suffer more and longer than animals raised for meat.

Choice of death sentence with quick execution or being tortured for years then be executed anyway.

If I thought any dairy apologists were actualy capable of being honest with themselves I'd start a poll asking them which of the two they would honestly choose for themselves.

 

[Clueless Git]

I, too, once continued eating dairy and eggs knowing full well what went on in those industries. I really have no room to judge.

On that basis a reformed thief would have no room to judge whether it's right or wrong to steal.

I think on the basis of greater knowledge those who have been both sides of any moral divide have the most informed judgement and thus the most right to judge of all.

 

[PTree15]

On that basis a reformed thief would have no room to judge whether it's right or wrong to steal.

I think on the basis of greater knowledge those who have been both sides of any moral divide have the most informed judgement and thus the most right to judge of all.

Perhaps. I guess I would just feel guilty taking someone to task for not being vegan given that I wasn't always a vegan.

 

[flyingsnail]

Choice of death sentence with quick execution or being tortured for years then be executed anyway.

The fact that dairy cows live longer is, in itself, immaterial....the key question is whether a dairy cow produces more food energy per hour of its life than a cow raised for slaughter.

 

[ledboots]

I think the key question is [emoji20]

 

[Dedalus]

Why do you think they suffer more? And the amount of time spent on farms isn't the critical issue here, rather the amount of food that can be created per hour of life. Dairy is more efficient than beef production, that translates into less environmental damage and more food energy created per hour the animal is alive. And dairy cows are, in most cases, better treated than cows raised for beef....the farmers have more of a invested interest in their health.


Well I guess it can be one....its just a bad one. The conditions on factory farms can be used to argue against that form of dairy or egg production...but they aren't an argument against dairy or egg production in general. You can, and people do, produce dairy and eggs in other ways.

Suggesting that dairy and eggs necessarily involve animal exploitation is a different sort of argument, but if one thinks all animal exploitation should be avoided that is going to lead to the avoidance of pets, rescue animals, etc as well. Not to mention it would decimate our ability to grow nuts and fruits. This sort of argument makes more sense, I think, but I'm not sure how to make sense of the consequences.

You sir, have lost all debating credibility with me. Bye bye.

 

[Ann Chovie]

The fact that dairy cows live longer is, in itself, immaterial....the key question is whether a dairy cow produces more food energy per hour of its life than a cow raised for slaughter.

Immaterial as in...

Being kidnapped and faced with the possibility of either having your throat cut straight away or being hung up by meat hooks dying slowly and torturously in intense pain before having your throat cut and the choice of the kidnapper being immaterial to you?

 

[Clueless Git]

Immaterial as in...

Welcome to the internet access equivalent of "who's still selling bicycles to these fools anyway?"

 

[flyingsnail]

You sir, have lost all debating credibility with me. Bye bye.

Philosophy isn't for everyone.

Immaterial as in...

Being kidnapped and faced with the possibility of either having your throat cut straight away or being hung up by meat hooks dying slowly and torturously in intense pain before having your throat cut and the choice of the kidnapper being immaterial to you?

Immaterial as in....its not the factor that you'd want to look at if you're trying to determine whether dairy or beef involves more suffering. If you have two animals that suffer equally per hour but one produces more food per hour of life than the food item produced by that animal would involve less suffering than the other. Gory language doesn't really address the matter.

 

[beancounter]

Just because one being potentially suffers less than another, or just because the utilitiy derived from a being's suffering is more per hour than another makes no difference. Quantifing the degree of suffering isn't the point. Suffering is suffering.

 

[Ann Chovie]

Philosophy isn't for everyone.

.

You cannot measure suffering against productivity without moving it from philosophy to economics
,

 

[beancounter]

You cannot measure suffering against productivity without moving it from philosophy to economics
,

Not only that, but it sounds very much like an Omni justification argument.

 

[Scorpius]

Not only that, but it sounds very much like an Omni justification argument.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing . . .

Reminds me of the 'happy cows' type of omni fantasy/mentality.

 

[rainforests1]

Every omnivore I've ever met also promotes dairy and eggs. If you honestly think a vegetarian who promotes dairy and meat is promoting more cruelty than an omnivore who promotes dairy and eggs, this conversation is over.

 

[beancounter]

this conversation is over.

No, the conversation is not over, and you do not have the authority to end it.