Vegans Have a Moral Duty to Have Children

[Second Summer]

MOD POST
I've attempted to move all the abortion-related posts to a new thread as I consider it to be off-topic to the original topic.

 

[FredVegrox]

That's just as well, as I have strong held positions on abortion. About vegans having duty to have children, I would say vegans have a better reason than anyone else for having children, as people really have to be living in a vegan way to continue in this world, and others are not as likely to have children who will go vegan as those who are already vegan. But as there are too many people for us to go on sustainably anyway, even if we all lived in primitive simplicity, which would be much better for us being in this world, with growing all the things needed for food and materials, it would be better to just not have children anyway, as civilization this way would collapse in the not far off future with its being unsustainable with which it is becoming more and more unstable.

 

[vesper818]

I wonder how many vegans here were raised so. Much more "productive" would be to seek to support new vegans, and influence carnivores of all ages to try a plant based life.
Plus, no diapers to change!

 

[Brian W]

Imagine having to fulfill a "moral obligation" to have children. What kind of upbringing would those children have? Certainly not a loving one!

 

[digitarian]

The answer depends on the approach:

• if you're trying to create a vegan world - then vegans having kids is great.
• I agree with others that adoption is a way to prevent growing the population to unsustainable levels.
• If it's about increasing veganism in the world - it probably won't work - as kids might support animal industries

I think if it's done whereby you give your kids a choice and explain what's vegan and not when they want to know - then I would say kids would less likely become omnivores through rebelling. This is heavily seen and discussed on the Born Vegan channel. I have met vegans from birth - so you're giving them a head start. I would say for a world going vegan - it's morally unethical to not raise kids vegan - as then you'll end up with many depressed kids trying to go vegan and having to realize that they spent many years being an omnivore that is a part of them and can never be taken back. To raise kids properly to pave the way for others in helping to raise their kids vegan is not only morally justified but needed in this new vegan day and age.

I mean look at this: "Google revealed that the terms “vegan food near me” experienced more than a 5,000 percent increase in 2021" Searches for "Vegan Food Near Me" Grew 5,000 Percent in 2021 | The Beet - just helping people who currently exist on the planet and not having kids will not be enough of a support system to help out the growing demand - when it's at exorbitant numbers - like 5000%! Vegans having vegan kids makes more sense.

Obviously since animal agriculture takes up about two continents of land, that will be freed up for more people in a vegan world. So the world would be able to accommodate vegan births! With veganism - food is very easy to optimize - because you can have vertical farming and arcologies in a vegan world (which is really hard to do for animals - imagine raising cows, chickens, crickets, etc. even in a skyscraper - it would be a mess compared to plants - as these breed diseases in close confinement and require movement compared to plants!). These people are going to use fewer resources. We can go into space - as plants generate oxygen and absorb CO2. So the complaints about a lack of space and resources is a little baseless, even with current statistics we have now - simply because they can't forecast what a vegan world's like - as we've never seen it! It's very likely that we'd have greater efficiency once we get there - as we won't have to worry about animals anymore.

I mean think about this - if vegans populate the world, meat eaters would decrease in population - simply due to a change in demand - they'd be pushed out - so there's no extra resources for the child coming into the world, as they'd replace what's lost anyway. We saw this with the pandemic - how meat prices skyrocketed - they would likely not be able to survive when the world goes vegan - as they would likely not be able to afford their lifestyle after a while. No cultured meat can take its place easily either - as it relies on animal agriculture to harvest the cells and its ingredients to grow them - not that people want lab-grown food anyway. So that won't work - they'd have to go vegan to survive, which most meat eaters I know would do if forced to. So having vegan kids would turn meat eaters vegan in the end.

 

[digitarian]

Imagine having to fulfill a "moral obligation" to have children. What kind of upbringing would those children have? Certainly not a loving one!

I agree - just because we have a choice, doesn't mean we automatically have to - as no one knows every option available to them: maybe animal product paths are more ethical and vegan ones are worse - or there's a better path out there that we don't know about - who are we to judge? We can't - so thus - we have 0 moral obligation to any of it. And another thing - just because there's a moral choice doesn't mean that those who don't are free from having to think and make one.

This is what I'd call either a circumstantial or guilt by association ad hominem - it's a logical fallacy - it doesn't make sense. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should and vice versa - circumstance doesn't logically really relate to whether we should or not - as circumstances can change.

It's not a moral obligation - because we don't know what's truly best for ourselves - we can only make guesses and work with what we feel is the best we can do moving forward. Whatever we decide is what we go with - as I said - it depends on what we believe that determines if having vegan kids makes sense or not. For some that's a yes, others a no.

Me - I'm a vegan - but I can't have kids - because I take care of my family. We have to realize we live in a non-vegan world with other factors outside of veganism to consider for having kids. That means if a vegan can't have kids - they shouldn't put their life in a bad position just to try to do something they just can't do. What if someone biologically can't have kids? This question doesn't really take any of that into account. People can really only do what's right for them and it would be morally unethical to put someone in jeopardy over an ideology!

You're right - how would kids turn out? We shouldn't bring up vegan kids if it's not going to be a suitable environment for raising them - as that'll just be bad - leading to a dysfunctional vegan world and a bad image for veganism that no one wants to see.

 

[digitarian]

I would also add that vegan children only makes sense in a world that can support vegan childrearing - if they come into a world that isn't suitable or possible for veganism - it's not going to work out. This entire question's circumstantial!!

That said - it's practically turned into a necessity for the survival of humans to start to breed vegan children, as they're going to those who can survive in the future with climate change!

I feel that the motivation behind having vegan kids determines having them - having kids just for veganism is a short-term goal, but the reasons for keeping it in the long-term will likely be way different.

I think it's good to do this just to make a change and get people thinking about doing something than what is currently done - which is unsustainable - so it seems that the reasons for vegan kids is far removed from just bringing veganism into the world.

 

[beforewisdom]

Almost 8 billion people on the planet. I can remember when people were freaking out about 4 billion.

Nobody needs to have children.

Nobody should have children unless they love kids.

The world has more than enough emotionally injured people walking around.

 

[digitarian]

Almost 8 billion people on the planet. I can remember when people were freaking out about 4 billion.

Nobody needs to have children.

Nobody should have children unless they love kids.

The world has more than enough emotionally injured people walking around.

this is why I personally decided not to have kids - because there are just so many children that aren't taken care of by their parents (including if they died) - that there's enough to go around to help out as your own child without having more. That said - these people aren't going to be vegan or turn vegan, because they were raised differently. I know this - because the people I take care of try to go vegan, but don't know how and do it incorrectly and give themselves an excuse to avoid it. Even if they try, their default is going to not be vegan, due to what they're used to and the fact that they have their own lives as grown adults and can choose whatever they want - so I'm starting to realize - since you brought it up - that raising someone else is irrelevant to having vegan kids to increase veganism in the world - as raising someone else's kid isn't going to work that way. It just puts the idea in their head with a little meal here and there.

 

[Stardust1986]

I disagree completely

NOT having children is one of the most environmental friendly decisions you can make.

We shouldnt have many children, over population is one of the great problems affecting the world today. We should strive to have fewer children, and do more for them. Vegan parents dont necessarily give rise to vegan children, and most vegans today didnt grow up vegan. I eat vegan, and give my son also eats many vegan food, but I let him have whatever foods he chooses. He still eats meat and dairy sometimes, but he has a great appreciation of plant based foods, he enjoys no animals were harmed, he loves animals. I want it to be his own personal choice to be vegan

 

[Kathy Lauren]

Having kids just because they will be vegan does not reduce the number of non-vegan mouths in the world. It just increases the total number of mouths to be fed.

If you are going to have kids anyway, obviously raise them to be vegan. But don't have kids and try to justify it by saying they will be vegan. That helps no one.

I chose not to have kids because of the world population and the problem of sustainability. With the available resources being what they are, having no kids is best. If you are going to have kids, it has to be because you want kids, not because you intend to raise more vegans.

 

[FlandersOD]

Having kids just because they will be vegan does not reduce the number of non-vegan mouths in the world. It just increases the total number of mouths to be fed.

If you are going to have kids anyway, obviously raise them to be vegan. But don't have kids and try to justify it by saying they will be vegan. That helps no one.

I chose not to have kids because of the world population and the problem of sustainability. With the available resources being what they are, having no kids is best. If you are going to have kids,

it has to be because you want kids, not because you intend to raise more vegans.

I would disagree appart, only if it is both because you want kids and you will raise more vegans.

 

[Kathy Lauren]

I would disagree appart, only if it is both because you want kids and you will raise more vegans.

My point was that raising more vegans helps no one. Raising fewer non-vegans is what helps the animals.

In terms of what helps the animals, having no kids is the same as having vegan kids. And it is easier on the planet's overall ecology.

 

[VeganRachel]

I think this is an important discussion to have because many vegans, for reasons of their environmentalism, seem to be against having children. The fact is, if you don't have children, other people will. And their children will most likely not be vegans. And that means more animal suffering, more environmental devastation, and probably negative financial consequences for society (in the form of higher health care costs).

Alternatively, you have children. Sure, that might create some problems for the world... but ultimately, it's one way to bring more vegans into the world. And that has a range of different benefits:
1) More vegan voters ---> increased political strength of vegan movement ---> legislation to promote & spread veganism, subsidize meat alternatives, tax meat, etc
2) More vegan food consumers ---> increased consumer spending on vegan foods ---> increased corporate interest in producing vegan products that make it easier for non-vegans to go vegan
3) More vegans living in society ---> increased public exposure to vegan ideas through normal social interactions ---> more people decide to go vegan as they learn about it
4) More vegans in society ----> media companies produce media content to appeal to a vegan audience, which spreads veganism more rapidly through society

One argument against having children is that the children may decide not to be vegans. However, I think this is unlikely. Studies show children tend to have similar political views and dietary habits as their parents do... and veganism is obviously political and a dietary habit.

And if you are a committed vegan, you will have many opportunities while raising your kids to make sure they understand why veganism is important. You can have them watch a range of different documentaries and TV shows that provide a perspective that supports veganism like Cowspiracy, Dominion, Forks Over Knives, Speciesism: The Movie, Lucent, PlantPure Nation, ...etc. You can have them read and study books like The China Study, and look at the scientific research on websites like nutritionfacts.org explaining why animal products are so unhealthy.

Having children is a tremendous opportunity to change the world, and no vegan committed to changing the system should fail to seize that opportunity. The more the merrier.

Interesting philosophy. Yes, having more vegans in the world does make sense. However, how about adoption? give a child
or children a loving home and hope and pray they adopt veganism...

 

[Lou]

Interesting philosophy. Yes, having more vegans in the world does make sense. However, how about adoption? give a child
or children a loving home and hope and pray they adopt veganism...

That's sort of the same argument that we have with buying an animal vs rescuing an animal.

 

[Lou]

My apologies in advance. This is a little off topic but I thought it was still worth mentioning.

Years ago I read a short story. I don't remember its name or author - and I've looked a bit - but short stories - especially if in an anthology - are hard to search for.

The story is science fiction and takes place in the near future. The story takes place in an office. There is some kind of midlevel bureaucrat at his desk and he is discussing/interviewing a young married couple who have applied for a Baby Permit. they have taken the required classes, gone to the workshops, taken and passed the written and practical tests. And the final step was that they took home a Robot Baby for the week.

As they describe their week the reader realizes something the couple hasn't because they don't know anyone who has raised a baby. This Robot Baby is the baby from hell. In one week it has done and had everything wrong that a baby can. Colic, diarrhea, fussy eating and sleepless nights.

They expect that the robot baby will be analyzed and then if they get a passing grade they will go on to the next step. But the bureaucrat just takes the baby and turns it off (its been crying the whole time).

They ask what is the next step?

This throws the bureaucrat off. He tells them he doesn't know. No one has ever still wanted a baby after taking the robot baby home.

 

[VeganRachel]

That's sort of the same argument that we have with buying an animal vs rescuing an animal.

?? not every child raised in a certain way turns out that way. Many children revolt against what their parents want them to be.

 

[vesper818]

I think this is an important discussion to have because many vegans, for reasons of their environmentalism, seem to be against having children. The fact is, if you don't have children, other people will. And their children will most likely not be vegans. And that means more animal suffering, more environmental devastation, and probably negative financial consequences for society (in the form of higher health care costs).

Alternatively, you have children. Sure, that might create some problems for the world... but ultimately, it's one way to bring more vegans into the world. And that has a range of different benefits:
1) More vegan voters ---> increased political strength of vegan movement ---> legislation to promote & spread veganism, subsidize meat alternatives, tax meat, etc
2) More vegan food consumers ---> increased consumer spending on vegan foods ---> increased corporate interest in producing vegan products that make it easier for non-vegans to go vegan
3) More vegans living in society ---> increased public exposure to vegan ideas through normal social interactions ---> more people decide to go vegan as they learn about it
4) More vegans in society ----> media companies produce media content to appeal to a vegan audience, which spreads veganism more rapidly through society

One argument against having children is that the children may decide not to be vegans. However, I think this is unlikely. Studies show children tend to have similar political views and dietary habits as their parents do... and veganism is obviously political and a dietary habit.

And if you are a committed vegan, you will have many opportunities while raising your kids to make sure they understand why veganism is important. You can have them watch a range of different documentaries and TV shows that provide a perspective that supports veganism like Cowspiracy, Dominion, Forks Over Knives, Speciesism: The Movie, Lucent, PlantPure Nation, ...etc. You can have them read and study books like The China Study, and look at the scientific research on websites like nutritionfacts.org explaining why animal products are so unhealthy.

Having children is a tremendous opportunity to change the world, and no vegan committed to changing the system should fail to seize that opportunity. The more the merrier.

Hi V89

Out of curiosity, do you have children?

 

[vegan89]

Hi V89

Out of curiosity, do you have children?

It's not logical to say my argument is wrong based on what I'm doing in my personal life, if that's where you're going with this conversation.

Ad hominem - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Interesting philosophy. Yes, having more vegans in the world does make sense. However, how about adoption? give a child
or children a loving home and hope and pray they adopt veganism...

The title of the thread is "Vegans Have a Moral Duty to Have Children."

My phrase "having a child" seems like it is broad enough to encompass adopted children, in my opinion. If you adopted a child, then you "have a child." And if you adopt more than one, you "have children."

That said, I think it's best to have my own children... because being logical or compassionate enough to be a vegan might be a genetic trait.

However, if you adopt children and raise them as vegans, I would agree that seems like a more ethical thing to do than to not have children at all.

 

[tlc1976]

My point was that raising more vegans helps no one. Raising fewer non-vegans is what helps the animals.

In terms of what helps the animals, having no kids is the same as having vegan kids. And it is easier on the planet's overall ecology.

Your point was my first thought since reading this thread. Vegans still require world resources, just not quite as much. So adding a ton of vegans to the population in addition to everyone else, just to bump up percentages, is a net loss for sustainability.

Anything that helps existing people go vegan is a win. Adoption (of course only out of love, not strictly to convert). And awareness. Like for me, living in a rural area of the state, vegan options in stores have been little to non existent until only recently. Some places still don’t. True you don’t need brand names to go vegan, but all those choices I have now looking me in the face has made it easier to get a solid start that makes it seem worth it.

I have one child and since then I’ve been done. She’s grown and on her own. Between her friends and relatives, vegan seems to be a big thing. Also unfortunately she inherited a lot of my health issues, but vegan choices help her with that too.