Vegans Have a Moral Duty to Have Children

[Brian W]

No society is perfect, but some are better than others.

Dutch city becomes world’s first to ban meat adverts in public

Haarlem’s move is part of efforts to cut consumption after meat was found to contribute to climate crisis

www.theguardian.com

I'm not so sure about that. Of course you can single out issues where a society is better than others but often that is very superficial. I don't think banning meat adverts, for example, is going to do a lot of good while the whole capitalist/consumerist mindset is continually encouraged.

 

[Huckleberry]

I'm not so sure about that. Of course you can single out issues where a society is better than others but often that is very superficial. I don't think banning meat adverts, for example, is going to do a lot of good while the whole capitalist/consumerist mindset is continually encouraged.

Some societies support this kind of farming and others don’t:

Top 10 Most Amazing Vertical Farms in the World - EndAllDisease.com

Using vertical space to grow crops, vertical farms can produce 10x, 20x, 50x, even 100x (or more) food per acre than conventional farms.

www.endalldisease.com

Advertising bans worked to reduce tobacco use.

11.1 The merits of banning tobacco advertising - Tobacco in Australia

www.tobaccoinaustralia.org.au

I’ll also point out that socialist countries are responsible for environmental disasters:

The Aral Sea Disaster: How did it happen? | Greener Ideal

greenerideal.com

Pollution in China the World's Worst [PHOTOS]

The expeditious growth of industry in China in the last decade has been disastrous for the country's environment; China is the number one producer of carbon dioxide in the world

www.ibtimes.com

 

[Brian W]

Advertising bans worked to reduce tobacco use.

11.1 The merits of banning tobacco advertising - Tobacco in Australia

www.tobaccoinaustralia.org.au

I’ll also point out that socialist countries are responsible for environmental disasters:

The Aral Sea Disaster: How did it happen? | Greener Ideal

greenerideal.com

Pollution in China the World's Worst [PHOTOS]

The expeditious growth of industry in China in the last decade has been disastrous for the country's environment; China is the number one producer of carbon dioxide in the world

www.ibtimes.com

"Socialist" countries also function on capitalism. Banning tobacco ads probably halted the uptake of the habit but wouldn't have done anything to stop existing smokers. Meat is a whole different ballgame because most people are born into meat eating families and do not need advertising to get them started.

 

[Huckleberry]

Some societies are not friendly to the environment.

Illegal Chinese logging is devastating Africa’s forests | FairPlanet

From Nigeria to the Congo basin to Mozambique in South Africa, the rapacious Chinese appetite for unprocessed timber has left a trail of destruction.

www.fairplanet.org

Deforestation in New Guinea

Deforestation in New Guinea

wwf.panda.org

Africa: Species Endangered by Palm Oil Deforestation

Explore the biodiversity of Africa and discover how palm oil deforestation impacts wildlife. Learn how you can help. #BoycottPalmOil #Boycott4Wildlife

palmoildetectives.com

Refuge of endangered ‘African unicorn’ threatened by mining, poaching, deforestation

Perched in northeastern Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) near the borders of Uganda and South Sudan, Okapi Wildlife Reserve quietly encompasses some 14,000 square kilometers (5,405 square miles) of rainforest habitat. The DRC government established the reserve in 1996, and it is also...

news.mongabay.com

 

[VeganRachel]

Hi, the first thing I think of is anti-vegans. Hopefully, THEY will not have lots of children so they can
raise them as a carnivore to oppress vegans. Kind of a joke.
Instead you can adopt a dog at a shelter, especially on the "kill" day, and raise it/them as a healthy
vegan doggie.

 

[Huckleberry]

Yes, I think if there were vegan products that were higher quality to better simulate the flavors & textures of meat, while also offering a lower price than meat, and being of comparable nutritional value... I think people who would otherwise eat meat would make the change.

One reason people eat meat right now is because no such meat alternative of sufficiently high quality & sufficiently low price exists today. While Impossible Foods and Beyond Meat make fairly good meat substitutes, they are more expensive than meat from animals. Thus, many consumers aren't interested.



It likely wouldn't take much. Taxes on animal products to make vegan substitute foods more price-competitive (or just subsidizing the vegan food substitutes) would probably be sufficient to make a big change in dietary habits. Especially when paired with a public education campaign to alert the public to the many problems caused by animal product consumption.

It's a similar public policy model to what the government already uses to discourage people from smoking tobacco. And that was pretty effective at dramatically reducing tobacco consumption despite the highly addictive nature of tobacco products.

I think meat substitutes are expensive because its consumers are Yuppies who will pay high prices. Meat substitutes possess a superabundance of cachet. Time to move down market.

 

[Huckleberry]

You think that people eat meat for want of vegan products? Nutritious, tasty vegan food has been available since time immemorial, yet we are still surrounded by meat-eaters. As for government policies, I shudder to think what kind of government could make meat eaters go vegan.

Only moral conviction will make omnivores give up their meat. That cannot come from government nor from supermarket shelves.

Let’s be serious and realistic. Government should get involved. How about meat substitutes mandated in public institutions like prisons, hospitals, schools? How about bans on meat advertisement? How about taxing meat?

 

[Lou]

Let’s be serious and realistic. Government should get involved. How about meat substitutes mandated in public institutions like prisons, hospitals, schools? How about bans on meat advertisement? How about taxing meat?

In many places vegan food is available in prisons, hospitals, schools...

But c'mon, there would be Huge Pushback if it was mandated.
I doubt if there would be a public outcry if we banned meat commercials. although some media might resent the loss of revenue. And I'm sure Fox News would act like we had just killed their mother.
And as I have mentioned in numerous other posts there is no reason to tax meat. Again the public outcry fueled by Fox News would be intense. However, the entire livestock industry benefits from subsidies. Congress would not have to enact any kind of new taxes - they would just have to eliminate or reduce the subsidies. In fact, if done correctly it could be sold as a money saving policy.

Subsidies to the livestock industry came close to 10 Billion last year. Ten years ago it was only half that. As a start we could just go back to the levels in 2010.

Without subsidies some estimate that the cost of meat would double.

USDA livestock subsidies near $50 billion, EWG analysis finds

The Department of Agriculture has spent almost $50 billion in subsidies for livestock operators since 1995, according to an EWG analysis.

www.ewg.org

Removing the Meat Subsidy: Our Cognitive Dissonance Around Animal Agriculture

The Distracting Notion of Meat’s Impact on the EnvironmentAt this fall’s “Climate Crisis” town hall forum on CNN, Democratic front-runner Senator Elizabeth Warren dismissed the idea of reduced meat consumption as a simple distraction: “This is exactly what the fossil fuel industry hopes we’re...

jia.sipa.columbia.edu

https://scet.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/CopyofFINALSavingThePlanetSustainableMeatAlternatives.pdf

 

[Huckleberry]

In many places vegan food is available in prisons, hospitals, schools...

But c'mon, there would be Huge Pushback if it was mandated.
I doubt if there would be a public outcry if we banned meat commercials. although some media might resent the loss of revenue. And I'm sure Fox News would act like we had just killed their mother.
And as I have mentioned in numerous other posts there is no reason to tax meat. Again the public outcry fueled by Fox News would be intense. However, the entire livestock industry benefits from subsidies. Congress would not have to enact any kind of new taxes - they would just have to eliminate or reduce the subsidies. In fact, if done correctly it could be sold as a money saving policy.

Subsidies to the livestock industry came close to 10 Billion last year. Ten years ago it was only half that. As a start we could just go back to the levels in 2010.

Without subsidies some estimate that the cost of meat would double.

USDA livestock subsidies near $50 billion, EWG analysis finds

The Department of Agriculture has spent almost $50 billion in subsidies for livestock operators since 1995, according to an EWG analysis.

www.ewg.org

Removing the Meat Subsidy: Our Cognitive Dissonance Around Animal Agriculture

The Distracting Notion of Meat’s Impact on the EnvironmentAt this fall’s “Climate Crisis” town hall forum on CNN, Democratic front-runner Senator Elizabeth Warren dismissed the idea of reduced meat consumption as a simple distraction: “This is exactly what the fossil fuel industry hopes we’re...

jia.sipa.columbia.edu

https://scet.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/CopyofFINALSavingThePlanetSustainableMeatAlternatives.pdf

I’m not sure why you are so timid. When slavery was abolished there was a lot of “pushback”, but the abolitionists didn’t cower in their basements. It’s time to be bold. Meat substitutes taste better and better. A certain amount of persuasion and even coercion is needed to change people’s habits.

Do you want animal cruelty on an industrial scale?

Why the US egg industry is still killing 300 million chicks a year

Hatcheries promised to stop killing male chicks by 2020. What’s taking so long?

www.vox.com

Do you want destruction of the whole natural world?

Biomass study finds people are wiping out wild mammals

Humans have had a massive impact on other forms of life, one that far outweighs how little biomass we represent, according to a recent study. “It is definitely striking, our disproportionate place on Earth,” Ron Milo, an environmental scientist at Israel’s Weizmann Institute of Science, told the...

news.mongabay.com

Do you want the Greenland ice sheet to melt?

If you control the government and the big companies, especially the media, you can accomplish so much! If the Democrat Party would just focus on population reduction and ending meat consumption instead of, for example, propping up that racist Netanyahu, I think we would succeed.

Democrats Divided Over Support for Israel as Netanyahu Warns More Time Needed to Battle Hamas

Joe Biden is facing a brewing insurrection within his own party over which side the U.S. should favor in the crisis.

www1.cbn.com

 

[Lou]

I’m not sure why you are so timid. When slavery was abolished there was a lot of “pushback”, but the abolitionists didn’t cower in their basements. It’s time to be bold.

I have no argument with your facts but....

Slavery has been made illegal in many places over time but it still exists. (1)

in the US, after the passage of the 19th ademendment and Lincoln's Proclamation, Slavery was still in effect for 2.5 years. (2)

Speaking of a lot of pushback - Don't forget here in the US it took the civil war to end slavery.

------

What is modern slavery?

What is modern slavery? Find out where modern slavery happens today, the numbers behind it and who is affected.

www.antislavery.org

12 Fascinating Facts About Juneteenth

Juneteenth has been celebrated since enslaved people in Texas were told about their freedom on June 19, 1865. Here's what you need to know about the holiday.

www.mentalfloss.com

 

[Huckleberry]

I have no argument with your facts but....

Slavery has been made illegal in many places over time but it still exists. (1)

in the US, after the passage of the 19th ademendment and Lincoln's Proclamation, Slavery was still in effect for 2.5 years. (2)

Speaking of a lot of pushback - Don't forget here in the US it took the civil war to end slavery.

------

What is modern slavery?

What is modern slavery? Find out where modern slavery happens today, the numbers behind it and who is affected.

www.antislavery.org

12 Fascinating Facts About Juneteenth

Juneteenth has been celebrated since enslaved people in Texas were told about their freedom on June 19, 1865. Here's what you need to know about the holiday.

www.mentalfloss.com

I don’t think the meat-eaters are going to start a civil war lol.

 

[Huckleberry]

One good way to reduce population is to limit immigration.

https://www.albartlett.org/articles/ee_zero_growth_population_us_1995.pdf

 

[Sax]

I don’t think the meat-eaters are going to start a civil war lol.

Hmmm. I'm struggling to see a ban on meat/slaughter not leading to violence actually. Maybe not a civil war but I don't think it's that far fetched.

 

[Lou]

 

[Lou]

^ and that was just the ire based on a report.
Imagine if Biden actually banned meat.
Although, yeah, part of me would like to see that but then ...

meanwhile I'm sorry but we have gotten way off topic.

 

[Brian W]

One good way to reduce population is to limit immigration.

https://www.albartlett.org/articles/ee_zero_growth_population_us_1995.pdf

Eh??? It's not a single national population that is doing the damage, it is the worldwide population! Besides, far more people are being born than are emigrating.

 

[Huckleberry]

It’s kind of funny that you are so terrified by Fox News.

Conservatives get worked up over the death penalty, but there’s currently a moratorium on federal executions.

Many conservatives were also worked up over Covid lockdowns, yet we had lockdowns.

Please understand that the establishment is now almost completely on our side. I think you’d be surprised at how much we can get away with.

 

[Lou]

I think you’d be surprised at how much we can get away with.

Yes I would be. I still remember 2016. when the conservatives got a crooked TV star elected. And we are still suffering the consequences.

Could the democrats lose elections over meat? I'm not willing to gamble on it.

 

[Huckleberry]

Hmmm. I'm struggling to see a ban on meat/slaughter not leading to violence actually. Maybe not a civil war but I don't think it's that far fetched.

First of all I never suggested a total ban. Second I think you are overestimating the power of the meat-eaters. If some meat-eaters committed acts of violence they would suffer the penalty.

Meat tax far less unpalatable than government thinks, research finds

People are more likely to back policies to curb meat eating for health and climate reasons, Chatham House survey suggests

www.theguardian.com

 

[Huckleberry]

Yes I would be. I still remember 2016. when the conservatives got a crooked TV star elected. And we are still suffering the consequences.

Could the democrats lose elections over meat? I'm not willing to gamble on it.

I guess I’m more concerned with accomplishing something than just getting Democrats elected. After all many Democrats are extremely corrupt and completely worthless.

Biden Is Wrong. There Is No Such Thing As “Defensive” Saudi Weapons in the War on Yemen.

Biden wants to put a friendlier face on U.S. support for the war. We shouldn't let him.

inthesetimes.com

Biden’s $650 Million Arms Sale to Saudi Arabia

The vote wasn’t even close. On December 7, the US Senate voted 30-67 against a joint resolution (S.J. Res. 31) which would have blocked a $650 million US

www.counterpunch.org

Private Equity & Investment Firms Recipients • OpenSecrets

www.opensecrets.org

Tim Geithner Enjoying His Post-Obama Life by Scamming Poor People

Sorry if you had anyone else winning in your Most Hideous Career After Leaving the Obama Administration bracket, because Tim Geithner just blew the competition out the water. The Washington Post has a detailed and devastating report, published Sunday evening, about the predatory lending...

splinternews.com

Why be afraid of a meat tax?

Even with inflation, more than a third of Americans support a meat tax

Despite inflation in the double digits, US consumers support a 10% meat tax. What would that look like?

qz.com

Over 60% Of Young Americans Support Meat Taxes, New Study Finds

A new survey has found that more than 60 percent of Generation Z Americans support meat taxes and want to make plant-based products cheaper

plantbasednews.org