Why should married women change their names?

[Ansciess]

There are many schools of feminist thought and you are only putting across a particular view of feminism. I'm 37 years old now and I started borrowing my Mum's feminist books at age 9. Just read more widely yourself because I don't want to give you an education.

No, I mean describe the phenomena that oppression of black people under South African apartheid got boycotts in colleges all over the countries, coke boycotts, and so on - whereas the position of women in Saudi Arabia or honor killings tend to be seen as cultural issues.

 

[Ansciess]

"Except in this case, you made the non-feminist choice".

Lovely.

Really don't see the problem with that. It's like when a vegan wears used leather. It's not a "vegan choice." Leather isn't vegan. It doesn't mean the person isn't vegan or they're a bad person, but wearing leather is not a "vegan choice."

If you want to explain how 90% of women changing their names to their husband's name upon marriage is a "feminist choice," then please do. Are you saying that because women choose it, regardless of the cultural context, that that fact makes it a "feminist choice?"

 

[Moll Flanders]

No, I mean describe the phenomena that oppression of black people under South African apartheid got boycotts in colleges all over the countries, coke boycotts, and so on - whereas the position of women in Saudi Arabia or honor killings tend to be seen as cultural issues.

I know a few South Africans so I can talk about that subject if you really want and I have only seen documentaries about honour killings, although it does go on in the UK, but I don't see how this is relevant to the thread you started? I don't know what that has to do with people changing their name when they enter marriage/civil partnerships.

 

[Ansciess]

I don't know what that has to do with people changing their name when they enter marriage/civil partnerships.

Did you not read the context that my post was made in? About cultural vs. political issues?

 

[kibbleforlola]

Ansciess, I've already explained why it's inappropriate to judge women based on how you perceive how "feminist" their choices are. I really have no desire to explain it again. Women deserve to have the decisions regarding name change they make respected. I would have thought that somebody who self-identified as a feminist would understand that women, and even feminists, are not a monolith, and don't need to be patronized to about yet another thing women do wrong. But I guess I was wrong.

 

[mlp]

Ansciess, I've already explained why it's inappropriate to judge women based on how you perceive how "feminist" their choices are. I really have no desire to explain it again. Women deserve to have the decisions regarding name change they make respected. I would have thought that somebody who self-identified as a feminist would understand that women, and even feminists, are not a monolith, and don't need to be patronized to about yet another thing women do wrong. But I guess I was wrong.

I guess we shouldn't talk about feminism at all then, since any questioning is by its nature patronizing.

I'll shut up until this third wave of feminism is over.

 

[Envy]

To which degree should one respect the choice of an individual?

 

[Ansciess]

I think your statement is very hyperbolic and lacking nuance, kibbleforlola. Did anyone say women were "wrong" for changing their names? I don't think they're "wrong" and didn't say so.

I'm not sure how anyone can ever talk about social inequality involving women though, when it has anything to do with something that can be seen as a choice, at least for some women. I'm not sure why it doesn't seem interesting (at least) that 90% of one group chooses to do this thing that has its roots in oppression while the other group almost never makes that choice. I'm not sure why a political analysis of that seems so disturbing.

But must I "respect" every choice a woman makes? Do you?

 

[mlp]

To which degree should one respect the choice of an individual?

I don't care about any individual's choice in this context. I just find it amazing and mind boggling that people can look at the fact that 90% of the women in the U.S. change their name to their husband's name and say, "Oh, all of these women change their names because they've made independent individual choices to do that - it has nothing to do with history, societal expectations, etc. - it just happens in a vacuum."

I guess if it has nothing to do with societal expectations, it's genetic - women are born with the name changing gene, and men aren't.

 

[kibbleforlola]

No one is claiming it happens in a vacuum. What we're claiming - and what is happening - is that women are being judged for their choices.

Women make choices. Sometimes you'll agree with them, sometimes you won't. Sometimes they are influenced by outside influences, sometimes they aren't. Sometimes they're influenced by feminist ideals that you share. Sometimes they're influenced by a flavor of feminism you may disagree with. Sometimes a woman is actively anti-feminist and wants to stick to "tradition" where "women were women and men were men" (whatever that means). Sometimes women neither identify as feminist or antifeminist and their choice, for them, has absolutely no political overtones.

Women often do think about their choice to change their name, and to blow at them about how you don't like their choice is, frankly, patronizing. Women are adults, lets treat them like adults.

 

[Ansciess]

I don't care about any individual's choice in this context. I just find it amazing and mind boggling that people can look at the fact that 90% of the women in the U.S. change their name to their husband's name and say, "Oh, all of these women change their names because they've made independent individual choices to do that - it has nothing to do with history, societal expectations, etc. - it just happens in a vacuum."

I guess if it has nothing to do with societal expectations, it's genetic - women are born with the name changing gene, and men aren't.

Well I actually saw a comment in which a man surmised that it was genetic that women would change their names. Of course since it doesn't happen throughout time (surnames are recent) or in every culture, that theory is blown out of the water.

But the fact that it's so normalized that 90% of women do it, and to even question or try to analyze the practice causes great uproar among women (I don't know about men), makes it seem that it's a topic for another generation.

 

[Ansciess]

If you take it as a lethal judgment when someone points out that the practice might point to some culturally problematic issues, there is no way to talk about it.

 

[mlp]

No one is claiming it happens in a vacuum. What we're claiming - and what is happening - is that women are being judged for their choices.

Women make choices. Sometimes you'll agree with them, sometimes you won't. Sometimes they are influenced by outside influences, sometimes they aren't. Sometimes they're influenced by feminist ideals that you share. Sometimes they're influenced by a flavor of feminism you may disagree with. Sometimes a woman is actively anti-feminist and wants to stick to "tradition" where "women were women and men were men" (whatever that means). Sometimes women neither identify as feminist or antifeminist and their choice, for them, has absolutely no political overtones.

Women often do think about their choice to change their name, and to blow at them about how you don't like their choice is, frankly, patronizing. Women are adults, lets treat them like adults.

O.K., what I'm getting is that it's patronizing to question a woman's choice about anything.

Is it also patronizing to question a man's choice?

We should probably get rid of a whole lot of threads on this board - it seems as though there's a lot of patronizing going on.

 

[Renee1]

I dunno if the one who described me as having internalized misogyny has room to talk here. Because that's patronizing.

No, that's the reality of growing up in a patriarchy...

 

[Ansciess]

O.K., what I'm getting is that it's patronizing to question a woman's choice about anything.

Is it also patronizing to question a man's choice?

We should probably get rid of a whole lot of threads on this board - it seems as though there's a lot of patronizing going on.

Not even "question a woman's choice," but "question a cultural practice - about which at least some women have a choice."

 

[Mel]

I personally wish that the tradition of a woman changing her name never got started as takes its roots from a very patriarchal ideology. Just because that's the way things were back then doesn't mean it should be that way. That being said, since the tradition does exist, people should do whatever the hell they want with their surnames without being made to feel shamed and guilty about it. People should certainly not be made to feel like they need to justify their choices to society with 'excuses'. (to me, they're not excuses, they are legitimate reasons)

If women are feeling pressured toward a certain decision by anyone (especially their husband to be), then that's a different story. It's their choice, not anyone else's no matter how committed they are to the relationship.

I took my first husband's name. I regretted it. We separated (he left) 4 months into the marriage, and I didn't know how easy it was to change my name back to my maiden name, so I lived with my ex's surname for 10 years.

When I remarried 2 years ago, I hyphenated. So did my husband. Nice compromise don't you think? He is proud of his new name, and so am I.

Also, can we have a word for a man's 'maiden name'? Since women changing their names is not going to go away, and more men are changing theirs now. That's not even counting male gay marriages.

 

[Ansciess]

No, that's the reality of growing up in a patriarchy...

If you accuse me of having internalized misogyny because I have a different analysis of an issue involving women, how is that not patronizing, according to your own standards? Here, let me quote kibbleforlola:

Sometimes [women are] influenced by feminist ideals that you share. Sometimes they're influenced by a flavor of feminism you may disagree with.

Now, clearly my view falls within a feminist viewpoint - it was just on Feministe, written by a feminist - so are you saying that those feminists who have a different idea about feminism than you do have internalized misogyny? Are you the judge and jury about what's feminist? I thought that judging women was supposed to be bad.

 

[kibbleforlola]

Honey, we all have internalized misogyny. Some of us recognize it and make an effort to examine it, and some of us don't.

 

[mlp]

Honey, we all have internalized misogyny. Some of us recognize it and make an effort to examine it, and some of us don't.

And using the term "Honey" in this context is not at all intentionally patronizing....

But I'm really looking forward to seeing an example of you or Renee examining your internalized misogyny.

 

[Ansciess]

Honey, we all have internalized misogyny. Some of us recognize it and make an effort to examine it, and some of us don't.

So am I understanding then that if someone's analysis of feminism is different than mine, I can fairly chalk that up to and accuse them of internalized misogyny too? And I can tell them that without being patronizing? And I can thus judge them for their feminist beliefs (while at the same time saying women should never be judged)?