US 1.4% of white Americans owned slaves

[Mischief]

Actually, I'd argue that you can't talk about collective guilt felt over an event without actually knowing about the event.

Oh, jeez, don't confuse us with logic.

 

[kibbleforlola]

Oh, jeez, don't confuse us with logic.

I'm sorry!

 

[Mischief]

Just don't do it again.

 

[FortyTwo]

Of course there is - you are claiming there's no need to feel badly because it was just great to be a slave.

I'm sorry, I think you're misunderstanding him!

He's not saying slaves didn't have it bad. Just that white people had it just as bad. Jeez.

 

[das_nut]

No matter if my ancestors owned slaves or were slaves, it doesn't make me a good person or a bad person, and I do not have some sort of everlasting benefit from them because we may share some DNA.

 

[Clueless Git]

I'd say Hitler is mentioned 200 times more than Mao is, despite Mao being a far bigger murderer. That's all I have to say about this.

Hitler murdered people who matter.

Mao mainly murdered just the Chinese.

On other matters, if it matters ..

I read what you said and the usual suspects saying you said something you didn't say is, imho, something the mods and admins need to take a bit more seriously.

 

[FortyTwo]

Hitler murdered people who matter.

Mao mainly murdered just the Chinese.

There is such a thing as cultural context. That being said, I'd have no problem if more people understood and acknowledged the terrible things Mao did.

On other matters, if it matters ..

I read what you said and the usual suspects saying you said something you didn't say is, imho, something the mods and admins need to take a bit more seriously.

Nobody said that anyone said something they didn't say, as far as I've seen. Also, I'm trying really hard not to derail this, despite the fact that nobody's ever going to change their opinion and there are so many oh-so-crazy things being said, so at least give me some credit.

 

[Clueless Git]

He's not saying slaves didn't have it bad. Just that white people had it just as bad.

NO ONE said any such thing at all.

This is typical VB stuff going on here.

.. so at least give me some credit.

I'll give you a tip instead ...

Never say someone said something that they didn't say.

It says nothing about the other fellah's true character but it say's a lot about your own.

 

[Mischief]

"And in many of these cases(possibly most) they weren't treated too poorly." "most white Americans were poor and were not treated well"

How would you quantify the gap between being "not treated too poorly" and being "not treated well"?

 

[Clueless Git]

"And in many of these cases(possibly most) they weren't treated too poorly." "most white Americans were poor and were not treated well"

How would you quantify the gap between being "not treated too poorly" and being "not treated well"?

I couldn't help noticing that neither of those are actualy the "white people had it just as bad".

 

[Mischief]

If there is no quantifiable gap between "not treated well" and "not treated poorly" (and I note you avoided answering that), then "just as bad" is an accurate representation of what RF1 said.

BTW, I've just reported you -twice - in case the question comes up about who is reporting you.

 

[SummerRain]

Mod Post:

I have removed personal insults/attacks from this debate, and I will remind you again that it is against the forum rules to insult people, or call people names. This forum is for debating ideas. If anybody feels that a post violates the rules of the forum, please report it, and do not respond.

Members who continue to break rules may have posting privileges in both the DCE forum and the other VV forums removed.

(Some posts have also been removed because the quoted deleted posts, not because the broke rules).

 

[Clueless Git]

Well, admin seems to agree that "some slaves were not treated poorly" and "some whites were not treated well" is the same as "whites had it just as bad".

Sometimes you just have to go with the flow.

 

[SummerRain]

Well, admin seems to agree that "some slaves were not treated poorly" and "some whites were not treated well" is the same as "whites had it just as bad".

Sometimes you just have to go with the flow.

Calling people names and insulting them is against the forum rules. It has nothing to do with the opinions you've expressed in the thread, it is to do with how you expressed them. I think that was clear from my post.

 

[rainforests1]

Of course there is - you are claiming there's no need to feel badly because it was just great to be a slave.

I'm clearly against collective guilt and don't believe one race should feel guilty over what 1% of the population did many years ago. Some slave owners were brutal, while others were much better. It varies with each case, but I clearly have never said it was great to be a slave.

 

[rainforests1]

In America, or the Western world actually (I'd even go as far as to say this applies to much of the East as well) people probably aren't going to understand collective guilt in regards to Mao considering he was a very distant and irrelevant figure as far as those societies go.

In fact, I doubt China even feels too much collective guilt over Mao, considering his regime is more or less still intact, if toned down somewhat.

On the other hand, slavery in America is something very recent that had long-term effects which are still with us today in a tangible and overwhelmingly negative way. The same goes for Hitler. I don't think it's hypocritical as an American to make a bigger deal out of Hitler or slavery than Mao or Genghis Khan.

Neither Hitler nor Mao have any impact on the world today. If you can explain otherwise, I'd love to hear it since you obviously didn't give an explanation. As one who considers a farm animal's life to be equal with a human life, it's hard for me to have anything close to an obsession with one individual. Both promoted a lot of evil but would a chicken look at them as being two of the worst humans ever? No.

I wish we'd hear more about today's events. 7 billion people in the world and the problems that is causing. Amazing animal cruelty that goes on. The oceans going through horrible problems. Resources being depleted. We'd hear a lot less about race, and a lot more about some of the issues that are being ignored today. Talking about historic leaders gets us nowhere so they should be talked about far less. When the inevitable crisis happens, you know future generations will talk about much different issues than we talk about today. Rightfully so.

 

[beancounter]

Mod Post
There have been a couple violations of rule number 2. Please avoid empty post.

2. On-topic: Keep on topic - avoid making off-topic posts. This includes “empty” responses, or general chit-chat, such as "lol I agree" or "this thread is silly, why can't we stop making threads about this?".

 

[das_nut]

The belief that we're responsible for the actions of people who lived long before us is foolish. Take this to it's logical extreme - if my entire family was from pro-abolitionist Quakers, and your entire family were slave owning southerners, are you more responsible than I am?

Feeling guilt for those long dead are also useless. Lets focus on the problems today, the individuals and groups that have lost out. Lets fix this society so that more than just a certain select group has most of the advantages.

Also, I'd suggest against trying to cite A People's History of the United States for this argument, which, from what I can find on it, actually sounds like it tells a pretty fair story of what was going on.

That book is extremely biased. I would not say it tells a "fair" story, but specifically goes out of its way to focus on specific groups. It's useful as a work that focuses on groups that would otherwise be ignored.

 

[nigel1]

Mod Post
There have been a couple violations of rule number 2. Please avoid empty post.

2. On-topic: Keep on topic - avoid making off-topic posts. This includes “empty” responses, or general chit-chat, such as "lol I agree" or "this thread is silly, why can't we stop making threads about this?".

What about posts that challenge the participants to show how Hitler or Mao have any impact on the world today, then goes on to explain that the oceans are going through horrible problems? It's difficult to be constructive or serious under such circumstances.

 

[Nightshade]

The belief that we're responsible for the actions of people who lived long before us is foolish. Take this to it's logical extreme - if my entire family was from pro-abolitionist Quakers, and your entire family were slave owning southerners, are you more responsible than I am?

I don't think anyone is suggesting that we can redress historical wrongs by having a communal case of the white persons' sads. All that serves to do is make it about ourselves...again. My understanding of 'Collective Guilt' isn't about feeling personally responsible for what our ancestors may or may not have done but more about accepting how those actions still impact nations, races, and cultures today and doing whatever needs to be done in order to keep history from ever repeating itself. It starts by acknowledging the privilege that certain groups have, not shared by people of color and other minorities, and being fully supportive of any policies which address those issues by promoting tolerance and equity between the races and genders.