US Boys failing in the education system

[Clueless Git]

Thank you for demonstrating so clearly and effectively the underlying cultural bias in a certain segment of the population ..

It is mainly to the detriment of women if what the work place rewards is seen merely as a cultural bias.

 

[beancounter]

I do NOT selectively quote post to intentionally skew meaning. I only quote the part of the post I'm responding to for brevity and clarity. YOU are skewing my intent.... " Transference is a phenomenon characterized by unconscious redirection of feelings from one person to another." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference

AF asked for examples of people who blow off boys issue topics. I provided those examples. Are you now denying that the intent of your " This thread is pretty amusing" post was not to convey that you find the topic invalid?

This thread is pretty amusing,

ETA: You might also want to think about this: If you need to quote only a portion of someone's sentence (as you did in quoting me) in order to make your point, you probably don't have a valid point to make. Selective editing, when you can't bring yourself to quote even an entire sentence, isn't honest or particularly persuasive.

 

[beancounter]

Only $279K? That could be the difference between having a decent retirement savings and having to work till you drop. Also, high school educated people become unemployed more frequently and for longer periods, and are more likely to loose their job to technological advances as well as outsourcing to overseas companies. I am living this right now. We were recently acquired by a company who intends to replace 80% it's $15/hour workers with $8.75 Indian workers. I know this because I calculated the savings and built the budget. Only a few white collar workers have been let go so far.

This is about college vs. high school, but I see you couldn't resist inserting the male/female wage gap in there.

And as you can see I quoted your entire post...

But that only tells part of the story. According to the WJS, the lifetime earning differential between someone who graduated from college and someone who didn't is only $279,893. That comes down to $6,509 per year if you work from 22 to 65. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748703822404575019082819966538

According to this study, the pay gap between men and women in the job is bigger in those professions that pay more. http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013...t-and-smallest-pay-gaps-between-men-and-women

The average weekly pay is $1,087 for the jobs where the wage gap between men and women is biggest. That annualizes out to $56,524. Applying the median pay gap for that classification of jobs, women are earning $18,539 per year less then men, doing the same job. That is a lifetime difference of $797,214 simply by virtue of having been born female, versus the $279,893 difference resulting from not going to college.

If you do the same calculation for the jobs which have the least gap between men and women in terms of pay for the same job, you get an weekly pay of $773, for annual pay of $40,196. The median annual gap between men and women in this category of jobs is $522, and over a lifetime is $22,469.

If you average those two lifetime gaps between men and women performing the same jobs, that still means that women's lifetime wages are still $409,991 less than the lifetime wages of the men doing the same jobs. Compare that again to the lifetime wage gap of $279,893 between college grads and high school grads.

By all means, improve schools. That will benefit males and females. Stop perpetuating stereotypes about how "girly" it is to seek to excel academically, and how math and science and technology aren't "feminine". That will benefit males and females. But don't pretend that males are more disadvantaged than females in their schooling and career path, because the facts don't support it.

 

[beancounter]

Controlling for economic conditions, college educated workers earn more than HS educated workers. Noting exceptions doesn't change that reality.

That's one of the flaws with the entire discussion (and with the U.S. educational system, as a matter of fact). There's the underlying assumption that a college degree is automatically significant in earnings capacity, when there are so many people with college degrees working fast food, as home health aids, as office assistants, and other minimum wage or close to minimum wage jobs.

With very limited exceptions, the U.S., unlike many other developed countries, also does not have an apprenticeship system in place to teach people specialized skills that are not acquired in a college setting.

 

[beancounter]

Why is college so important though? Is it really important for people to go to school after school? What is wrong with learning a profession? Apprenticeships? Should young people really feel pressured into attending college when it isnt the right choice for them? It is elitist for society to expect people to go to college.

It's not about elitism, it's about potential life time earnings. But trade schools are a form of post high school education.
Trade school graduates will also have greater lifetime earnings than those that go straight from HS to the workforce.

 

[das_nut]

But that only tells part of the story. According to the WJS, the lifetime earning differential between someone who graduated from college and someone who didn't is only $279,893. That comes down to $6,509 per year if you work from 22 to 65. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748703822404575019082819966538p.

I read that article, and he's getting the $279,893 by using after-tax income, as well as counting the cost of college and the loss of working time. While I think such a calculation is useful, especially as a lesson to college students who aren't otherwise scared of taking on massive debt, it is a tad misleading to this discussion.

According to this study, the pay gap between men and women in the job is bigger in those professions that pay more. http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013...t-and-smallest-pay-gaps-between-men-and-women

The average weekly pay is $1,087 for the jobs where the wage gap between men and women is biggest. That annualizes out to $56,524. Applying the median pay gap for that classification of jobs, women are earning $18,539 per year less then men, doing the same job. That is a lifetime difference of $797,214 simply by virtue of having been born female, versus the $279,893 difference resulting from not going to college.

First, this is comparing apples and oranges. This is comparing pre-tax income differences to post-tax, with the cost of schooling deducted, income differences.

Such a comparison is faulty.

Second, you can always find a group that's more disadvantaged. There's always a bigger problem somewhere. That doesn't mean you ignore the small problems, no more than it's okay to litter just because murders are being committed.

It does fascinate me how some people sympathize with only a certain gender or race.

 

[das_nut]

Yes! I am young and stupid! If that is the explanation you desire then you have every bit of evidence to back it up.

"Inexperienced" and "stupid" are two different things. I theorized that its either your background or lack of experience that may be making it difficult to empathize with a certain gender falling behind in benchmarks.

Maybe your life, so far, has provided only successful examples of that gender that you know of. If so, you may be in a socioeconomic situation that makes it likely to perpetuate that success. Since you share that gender, that's lucky for you.

But I hope you have the experience in your life (hopefully not with your own life, but with the interactions you have with others) that shows you suffering and pain transcends gender, race, or class. And I hope you gain empathy from that.

 

[FortyTwo]

"Inexperienced" and "stupid" are two different things. I theorized that its either your background or lack of experience that may be making it difficult to empathize with a certain gender falling behind in benchmarks.

Maybe your life, so far, has provided only successful examples of that gender that you know of. If so, you may be in a socioeconomic situation that makes it likely to perpetuate that success. Since you share that gender, that's lucky for you.

But I hope you have the experience in your life (hopefully not with your own life, but with the interactions you have with others) that shows you suffering and pain transcends gender, race, or class. And I hope you gain empathy from that.

Uhm... thanks for not wishing suffering on me?

But I do have to say you're completely wrong. Do you not think I know that suffering is a universal phenomenon? That I am somehow inexperienced enough to not understand something as simple as that?

Urgh, I understand why people get so frustrated with you. Never mind. Like I said. Bowing out of the conversation.

 

[das_nut]

But I do have to say you're completely wrong. Do you not think I know that suffering is a universal phenomenon? That I am somehow inexperienced enough to not understand something as simple as that?

If you know what suffering is, to see the troubles that tends to happen to those with inadequate educations, and you are informed that there's a systematic flaw in the education system that causes it to under serve an entire gender of people, then why is your reaction, to quote your own words, the mocking "oh woe to us, poor boys!"?

It's one thing to intellectually understand that suffering can happen to anyone. It's another thing to be able to empathize with people, regardless of class.

 

[Freesia]

It's not about elitism, it's about potential life time earnings. But trade schools are a form of post high school education.
Trade school graduates will also have greater lifetime earnings than those that go straight from HS to the workforce.

I think it is kind of different here. When I entered the workforce after uni I couldnt get a job because the employers thought I was just working for their company as an interim while looking for work to do with my degree.

In the end I had to write on my CV that I had dropped out of college after the second year just so I could find work. In NZ people with degrees can often be considered "overqualified". Specific trade skills (and experience) are more valued.

 

[ledboots]

Controlling for economic conditions, college educated workers earn more than HS educated workers. Noting exceptions doesn't change that reality.

Controllong for economic and other conditions, men earn more than similarly educated women. So how is the educational system hurting men again? They don't get as many A's ?

 

[Clueless Git]

Controllong for economic and other conditions, men earn more than similarly educated women. So how is the educational system hurting men again? They don't get as many A's ?

I don't see why this is a man problem either.

There is clearly a difference in what leads to more A's in academia and what leads to more dosh in the workplace.

Whatever that differential is, academia is failing to nurture in women and/or stamp out in men.

That is academia failing women at a level that actualy matters.

 

[beancounter]

Controllong for economic and other conditions, men earn more than similarly educated women. So how is the educational system hurting men again? They don't get as many A's ?

My whole line of conversation has been about the economic differences between college educated men vs. highschool educated men. Male/female pay inequity has nothing to do with it.

It's like discussing erectile disfunction in a thread about PMS.

 

[beancounter]

Mode Post
This thread is about about male school performance and graduation rates, and the economic impact it has on men.

If you wish to talk about female graduation rates/school performance and pay inequity, please start a new thread.

 

[das_nut]

I wonder how this inequality breaks down by race and income level?

Is it racist stereotypes in play?

Or perhaps it's cultural - working-class blue collar boys don't expect to use these skills, so they never learn them.

 

[ledboots]

Mode Post
This thread is about about male school performance and graduation rates, and the economic impact it has on men.

If you wish to talk about female graduation rates/school performance and pay inequity, please start a new thread.

What are we comparing the males' school performance to if not to the females'?

The thread is called "Boys failing in the education system", not "high school educated men earnings vs college educated men's earnings." Maybe that could be a thread of its own, if we have to be so specific.

 

[beancounter]

What are we comparing the males' school performance to if not to the females'?

The thread is called "Boys failing in the education system", not "high school educated men earnings vs college educated men's earnings." Maybe that could be a thread of its own, if we have to be so specific.

Right. Boys, not girls.

Boys are graduating at a lower rate than girls/attending college at a lower rate. How how well a girl does, has no bearing on how well a boy does.

Girls are not part of that equation.

And how pay inequity in the workforce factors into this discussion about male graduation rates and performance is beyound me since highschoolers are not typically part of the full time workforce.

I seem to be reading here that because men typically fare better in the workforce, it's OK that boys are graduating at lower rates.

 

[ledboots]

Right. Boys, not girls.

Boys are graduating at a lower rate than girls/attending college at a lower rate. How how well a girl does, has no bearing on how well a boy does.

Girls are not part of that equation.

And how pay inequity in the workforce factors into this discussion about male graduation rates and performance is beyound me since highschoolers are not typically part of the full time workforce.

I seem to be reading here that because men typically fare better in the workforce, it's OK that boys are graduating at lower rates.

But...if fewer girls attended college, then more boys would, right? Unless it is something else taking the boys' college slots, I don't see how girls are not part of the discussion. Or you are saying that boys are choosing not to go to college?

It just reminds me of white Americans whining about reverse racism from blacks, or US Christians whining about being discriminated against. If you are the ones with the power and money, it's hard for others to feel your pain.

I have a son who is brilliant but hated school, so I'm not some man hater or disparager. For the most part, the public schools in the US suck, tbh, and if they keep adding more boring testing, the boys will just hate it more.

 

[das_nut]

It just reminds me of white Americans whining about reverse racism from blacks, or US Christians whining about being discriminated against. If you are the ones with the power and money, it's hard for others to feel your pain.

Why are you assuming that being biologically male means you have money and power?

It's foolish to look at the top people in a society and assume that people who share their attributes must be in the same position. After all, the president of the United States would commonly be identified as male and African-American, yet most African-American males lack his power.

A more extreme example would be the House of Representatives - full of crazy people, but most crazy people aren't powerful politicians*.


* This is an unfair joke - it perpetuates a stereotype: Most mentally ill people aren't a danger to others, but the Tea Party is a danger to anyone who requires healthcare and has a pre-existing condition.

 

[ledboots]

Ok I so have to leave this thread. I can't keep composing and discarding posts.