US Connecticut Shooting

We spend our entire lives learning how to go against our instincts. That's what it takes to survive in a civilization based society we weren't meant for. Whether it's putting the food down so we don't get fat, sitting in the office when we want to go out and play, or remaining faithful to a significant other when our hormones are telling us to screw everything in sight. The thought of killing someone might seem repugnant to those who have never crossed that bridge, but rest assured we've crossed many other bridges just like it. We have to in order to survive in this world. We don't have the luxury of being able to blindly follow our intuition the way that every other living thing does. Our success is determined largely by willpower, and willpower means being skilled at doing things that don't intuitively feel right.

Some people might very well have an extremely high threshold, but I've seen enough to believe that almost everyone has a breaking point. And unfortunately for those few that don't, when people turn on each other they're the first to go. Those who think in terms of black or white don't have any more tolerance for grey than they do for each other.

Well there's violence that "makes sense" and then violence that doesn't.
It makes sense to react violently to the person that causes you specific harm. Most of the mass muders had no such reprocicity. In other words, those children never caused the killer any harm, so it made no sense to kill them. He was lashing out randomly.

Strictly from an evolution/survival standpoint, randomly killing others that didn't cause you harm, is a complete waste of resources and energy, and doesn't conform to your argument.
 
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

I'm not sure what all of the confusion is about. It seems straight forward to me. If you are not a member of a well regulated militia (the military), you don't specifically have the right to own a gun.
 
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Well there's violence that "makes sense" and then violence that doesn't.
It makes sense to react violently to the person that causes you specific harm. Most of the mass muders had no such reprocicity. In other words, those children never caused the killer any harm, so it made no sense to kill them. He was lashing out randomly.

Strictly from an evolution/survival standpoint, randomly killing others that didn't cause you harm, is a complete waste of resources and energy, and doesn't conform to your argument.

Even killing or of necessity feels wrong to most people though. I wasn't trying to argue that the ability to kill children for no apparently reason is a survival necessity, but that the ability to go against you gut instincts in general is. I was arguing that the state of mind we must obtain in order to do other things that are necessary but counterintuitive can also lead us to do things that are unnessary and couterintuitive.
 
You're leaving out an important factor. Rwanda involved thousands of people committing the genocide. Imagine the carnage with thousands of people armed with guns instead of machetes. That's the point. Guns are a far more effective and efficient means to kill.

Yes. Killing someone with a machete or knife means that you have to get up close to someone and there is more of a chance of changing your mind or being too squeamish but with a gun there is a certain amount of detachment as you can kill from a distance.
 
Just a couple things to add, though not necessarily to make a specific point...

First, regarding the killing of children as a cultural taboo, now that I think about it even this isn't consistent. Infanticide has been accepted in some society, and frowned upon but still widely practiced in many others. I don't have an hour to spend rummaging through my history books for specific sources, but here's an interesting article that summarizes the history of infanticide by regions.

http://www.infanticide.org/history.htm

Not a fun subject to think about, but I encourage people to actually read the article. Some of these contexts are fairly well known, such as female infanticide as a result of male preference, but others are not as commonly known, such as colonial American infanticide and child killing even within the boundaries of the law.

Second, my view that, overall, violence is largely unavoidable, except for perhaps temporary minor reductions, and the fact that I've talked about hunting as a kid and owning my own assault weapons/rifles/carbines whatever you want to call them in the past, people might assume I'm taking a stance against gun control. To be perfectly honest, I'm pretty neutral. I'm not gonna have my feeling hurt if I can't buy guns anymore, I can't really see the point in the average citizen owning a carbine designed specifically to engage human targets from half a kilometer away, and I do think the original intent of the 2nd amendment is outdated, but I don't think it's a battle worth fighting at this stage. Gun control may have worked in other countries, but there is one critical difference in the case of the U.S. Gun fanaticism is part of our culture. That is changing, and it is changing quickly, but we're still far from a point where you can start placing heavy restrictions on firearms without having serious social ramifications. It might be difficult to see that for those of us who don't happen to be hanging around many gun freaks, but I do. Half the people in my unit own multiple firearms, and when they say things like "When they pry them from my cold dead hands," I would caution that they're probably not kidding. History has shown us many times that forcing even the most obviously rational changes onto cultures that aren't ready for it often creates more problems than it solves. In the wake of the Connecticut shooting and the gun debates that naturally followed, gun purchases have surged due to fear that laws will change. We're actually effectively putting more guns on the streets just by having these conversations.

The genocides in Rwanda currently at the center of this discussion are a perfect example. Prior to the arrival of large numbers of missionaries backed by the imported legal systems of the colonial powers they represented, much of Africa was composed of small villages in which "war" was a little squabble with a rival village in which 10 to 20 people might be killed. A mighty warrior within this cultural context was one who had collected perhaps 4 or 5 of the heads of his enemies over the course of his life. Their cultures included things those missionaries saw as wrong, (including but not limited to infanticide and child killing), and we went in by the hoards and forced change onto them. And yes, I think it goes without saying that there were indeed other agendas as well, but to say that these changes didn't go over smoothly would be quite an understatement.
 
If video games are so effective at changing people's behavior, the government should subsidize an eat-less-and-exercise-more game. Just think about the benefits to society.

I don't think the article said that they change behavior in and of themselves.

But I do think that they, together with a whole lot of other things, can desensitize to violence over time, and certainly add to the glorification of violence that permeates our culture.
 
I really don't think video games encourage violence in the majority of people. However, I agree it can de-sensitize people to the act.

I remember when tipper Gore said that AD&D would turn us into Satanist. Didn't happen. Just a big over-reaction. Same with video games.

I just had a thought. Back when I was a teen, all games gave you 3 lives. That was it. There was a finality. In the games my son plays, you either never die (just lose points), or you do die, but you can continue from where you left off, whereas "back in the day", you had to start from the beginning again. This has the effect of removing risk/reward factors from your actions.
 
I don't think the article said that they change behavior in and of themselves.

But I do think that they, together with a whole lot of other things, can desensitize to violence over time, and certainly add to the glorification of violence that permeates our culture.

I think hunting and animal slaughter desensitizes people more than video games personally.
 
I think hunting and animal slaughter desensitizes people more than video games personally.

Oh, I'm not going to argue that.

I'm not saying that the super violent video games are a major factor, or even a significant factor. I suspect that, in most cases, it's a whole bunch of little things, that would be insignificant in themselves, that have a cumulative and combined effect in desensitizing people to violence.

It's much the same point I was trying to make earlier with respect to the road rage murder. Take me, for example - I generally don't get angry at the stupid things people do in traffic - it's just not worth getting angry over.I can probably count on the fingers of one hand the times I have gotten angry about stuff like that. One time was some years ago when someone coming toward me zoomed past me on a narrow gravel road, almost forcing me off the road. (It's the kind of road that is so narrow that when two cars meet, it's necessary to inch past each other slowly, with each car partially on the shoulder.) I felt like turning around and following the guy to tell him that he was a ****ing idiot and that if he felt like killing someone with his SUV, he should do the world a favor and drive off a bridge without taking anyone else along. But you know what? It wasn't even about that guy and his irresponsible driving. I had just picked up the ashes of my much loved dog and had taken a detour on my way home to drive along the gravel road we used to walk together.
 
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

I'm not sure what all of the confusion is about. It seems straight forward to me.

What makes you think that "well regulated" intended to refer to government rules and regulations defining and controlling militias?

Firearm related deaths per capita: The US is at the top relative to other 1st world nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

We are. Yet, as I pointed out, deaths per firearms differ by nations.

The question is, why? Lowering the death rate per firearm seems far more politically feasible than banning certain guns that are only involved in a small fraction of gun deaths. Especially since feinting towards another (ineffective) assault weapon ban could probably get more than a few bones thrown in the direction of better mental health care, and restrictions on who can buy firearms.
 
Newtown receives an outpouring of healing giftsby Kristin Stoller, Special for USA TODAYPublished: 12/20/2012 12:34amNEWTOWN, Conn. -- When Ed Martino told one of his customers at Carminuccio's that her five pizzas were free, she broke into tears.His popular restaurant has become one of the focal points as people try to soothe the pain of the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting Friday with small gifts of kindness. He said people have donated more than $5,000 to buy meals for Newtown residents affected by their town's tragedy. People have been eating free at Carminuccio's for two days.The woman who ordered the pizza was so moved, Martino said, because she was minding 12 children at her house while their parents attended funerals for the shooting victims.In honor of the 20 children and six school staffers who died, people nationwide have pledged on Twitter to perform random acts of kindness.Ann Curry of NBC News took the idea viral when she tweeted, "Imagine if all of us committed to 20 mitvahs/acts of kindness to honor each child lost in Newtown. I'm in. If you are RT #20Acts."The movement quickly turned into #26Acts and became a national action. Reports on Twitter show that they are buying coffee for strangers, shoveling snow from a neighbor's walk, thanking long-ago teachers and sharing meals."It's nice. It's not all bad," Martino said. "There still are good people."Meanwhile, gifts of all kinds have been pouring into Newtown. Assessor Chris Kelsey said the town was bringing in four shipping containers to hold them all. The donations are being directed to a Newtown Parks and Recreation building, Kelsey said. The state police and a bomb squad are there to make sure everything is safe, he said."It's somewhat overwhelming, the stuff that has been coming in," Kelsey said -- anything from toys and school supplies to offers to build carousels and skating rinks. The town will distribute the toys to Newtown children from 4 to 8 p.m. Saturday at the town hall gym.Things designated for the 26 victims' families are set aside for them, he said.Some gifts are services meant to heal.One woman came to Newtown from Bridgeport, Conn., with a sign advertising free hugs, American Red Cross spokeswoman Donna Morrissey said.Morrissey said the Red Cross provided food, water, blankets and stuffed puppies for kids outside an interfaith vigil Sunday."In the face of adversity and overwhelming grief, it's been amazing to see not only community spirit among residents of Newtown but an outpouring of support from across the country and beyond," she said.For Heather Gunn-Rivera of New York City, relief hits closer to home. Her mother, art teacher Leslie Gunn, was at Sandy Hook Elementary during the shooting.Gunn-Rivera said she started the Sandy Hook Healing Project, which opens Friday, because it was what her mother said she needed: a community room with healing practices. The project offers free massage, acupuncture, counseling and more."People don't want to tell their stories right now," Gunn-Rivera said. "Maybe to a close friend, but what they need is to feel that they can just relax, not that someone is trying to pry and ask what they went through."Hundreds of people have volunteered their services, she said, including healers from Maine and California. http://m.usatoday.com/article/news/1780923?preferredArticleViewMode=single
 
Family/community coming together provides a degree of comfort during the early days, for sure. Things get tough after the funerals, when it sinks in that this is for real and for ever.

Some of the stuff mentioned in that article though seems to be more about making the people coming in from outside feel good - a stranger coming in from out of town and walking around with a sign advertising free hugs?
 
Daniel Barden, 7

Daniel Barden earned his ripped jeans and two missing front teeth, his parents said.Fearless in his pursuit of happiness and life, he was a budding athlete, a member of the swim team and an avid soccer player."Words really cannot express what a special boy Daniel was. Such a light," his parents, Mark and Jackie Barden, said in a statement. "Always smiling, unfailingly polite, incredibly affectionate, fair and so thoughtful towards others, imaginative in play, both intelligent and articulate in conversation: in all, a constant source of laughter and joy."He was a "sweet boy," said Karin LaBanca, whose 8-year-old daughter, Maggie, was friends with 7-year-old Daniel. The two children took the school bus together every day, she said.As Maggie spoke about her friend, Ms. LaBanca, 41 years old, stood close and put her arm around her shoulders. The mother gently pushed the bangs away from her daughter's eyes.During the rampage, Maggie hid in a classroom with her third-grade classmates for about an hour, until police brought them to a nearby firehouse. She said she looked for Daniel there, but couldn't find her friend."He likes to play foosball and soccer," Maggie said.Thanking the friends and community members who have offered prayers and support, the Bardens said their son "embodied everything that is wholesome and innocent in the world. Our hearts break over losing him and for the many other families suffering loss."
 

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In response to the renewed gun control discussion, guns are being purchased at manic levels. Never mind that there are already 350 million guns in the hands of civilian Americans. Never mind that those exhibiting this irrational behavior already own a disproportionate number of those guns. Never mind that there is no rational reason to believe that they will ever need these guns.