US Controversy over canceled sex talk at hacker convention

[yally]

Calling Violet Blue a sex worker is inaccurate because the job of sex workers is to get people off in one way or another. This is problematic because the suggestion that a woman who talks about sex must be in someway trying to objectify herself is out and out misogyny. Sex workers are equally deserving of respect but to say that Violet Blue is just a dishonest sex worker who is just pretending that her job isn't to titilate just isn't cool.

 

[Marie]

ETA: What really strikes me about that video is (1) how very nervous she is - she's very uncomfortable in front of an audience, and (2) there's no actual information conveyed, at least none of any substance.

I agree that she's not a very good public speaker.

There you go. It's no big loss that her sex talk was cancelled.

 

[Spang]

It's no big loss that her sex talk was cancelled.

If Violet Blue's harm reduction talk can save at least one hacker's life, then I'd argue that the cancellation was a huge loss. But the concern was never about the at-risk hackers. The concern was that a Violet Blue harm reduction talk may lead to an increase in incidences of harassment or trigger traumatic memories, which are both valid concerns. But they're really only valid if there's some evidence to back them up. I've watched a Violet Blue harm reduction talk. I fail to see how it could possibly lead to any of those things.

 

[Renee1]

We've tried shame-based attitudes towards sex and sex education; perhaps it's time something new be given a shot.

Anyone who tries to deny their misogyny, internalised or not, really needs to look a little deeper inwards because it is showing in abundance all over this clusterfuck of a thread.

 

[Spang]

I believe I should have disengaged from this discussion after my initial standing up to what I felt, and still feel, was the unfair mistreatment of Violet Blue in this thread, and allowed people much more qualified than me -- as I am truly unqualified -- to continue this debate, and remained an observer only.

I apologize.

 

[Envy]

I believe I should have disengaged from this discussion after my initial standing up to what I felt, and still feel, was the unfair mistreatment of Violet Blue in this thread, and allowed people much more qualified than me -- as I am truly unqualified -- to continue this debate, and remained an observer only.

I apologize.

Irony?

 

[das_nut]

For whom it may concern, since the discussion in this thread was revived in another thread.

1. I have no problem in admitting that I've mentioned, to other people, how I was shocked that this thread quickly turned into a discussion of how to judge if someone is a sex worker based on their name and how they dress.

2. I have no problem that I've mentioned, both online (not on VV) and offline, how I didn't think making such an assumption about women due to dress and name was rational.

Now can we stop discussion in a certain other thread on VV?

 

[mlp]

Well, as long as you're in an "admitting" frame of mind, do you also "admit" that part of this "mentioning" was to/with someone who routinely comments in crude terms about physical attributes of women in general and women he disagrees with in particular?

And, as long as you're in an "admitting" frame of mind, do you "admit" that the "mention" of lack of rationality wasn't about "an assumption about women due to dress and name", but rather that you didn't expect to "have a rational conversation" with either Pickle Juice or me (regardless of any comments about Violet Blue)?

I mean, as long as you're "admitting", you might as well "admit" to what was actually said, instead of your version of it. And then you might want to try to come up with a story about why you are fine with Tame's sexual crudity toward women and how that fits in with your self proclaimed high mindedness about matters of gender.

It should be interesting.

 

[Pickle Juice]

For whom it may concern, since the discussion in this thread was revived in another thread.

1. I have no problem in admitting that I've mentioned, to other people, how I was shocked that this thread quickly turned into a discussion of how to judge if someone is a sex worker based on their name and how they dress.

2. I have no problem that I've mentioned, both online (not on VV) and offline, how I didn't think making such an assumption about women due to dress and name was rational.

Now can we stop discussion in a certain other thread on VV?

Yeah, revived by you because you've been caught with your pants down. And yeah, you have no problem admitting you went behind people's backs now that you've been exposed.

Your attempts to make us all think you are a champion of women because you want to defend Violet Blue's right to talk about sex fall pretty flat when people see what you are willing to say behind the backs of women you don't like and call irrational just because they dare to disagree with you.

 

[das_nut]

Well, as long as you're in an "admitting" frame of mind, do you also "admit" that part of this "mentioning" was to/with someone who routinely comments in crude terms about physical attributes of women in general and women he disagrees with in particular?

Dude, he doesn't limit that to just women.

And, as long as you're in an "admitting" frame of mind, do you "admit" that the "mention" of lack of rationality wasn't about "an assumption about women due to dress and name", but rather that you didn't expect to "have a rational conversation" with either Pickle Juice or me (regardless of any comments about Violet Blue)?

I was expecting that assumptions would be made about hackers, and assumptions would be made about sex discussions, neither of which would be rational. I also expected that I'd be misinterpreted. That's easy enough to do - I tend to approach gender issues from the perspective of gender neutrality, which is different from most of feminism and feminism thought.

I thought such assumptions would be in the minority, but I was wrong.

What I wasn't expecting is for some here to jump to conclusions that a person with the name "Violet Blue" who wishes to discuss sex with other people at a con must be a sex worker.

You rather surprised me with that one.

I mean, as long as you're "admitting", you might as well "admit" to what was actually said, instead of your version of it. And then you might want to try to come up with a story about why you are fine with Tame's sexual crudity toward women and how that fits in with your self proclaimed high mindedness about matters of gender.

I can reply to a comment by someone on the merits of the comment itself, without having to drag a person's entire history into it.

 

[Pickle Juice]

Dude, he doesn't limit that to just women.

As long as he doesn't include you, right?

But it is interesting how you mention Tame's insults based on appearance only in regards to women. He's perfectly fine insulting men in a similar fashion. But I guess that isn't remarkable to you. Nor are his homophobic remarks.

What you don't object to is rather telling, don't you think?

No, what's interesting that you are trying to make it look like mlp is okay with Tame being insulting to men and homosexuals, which is ridiculous. Also ridiculous is your notion that it's ok to be hateful to women when you are also hateful to men. None of it is acceptable. But again, I guess as long as the haters aren't hating you you prefer their company to ours. One wonders why you continue to post here at all.

 

[mlp]

Dude, he doesn't limit that to just women.

True. He does the same thing to gay men. And he likes to insult straight men by insinuating that they are gay.

All very admirable qualities for you to approve of.

But it is interesting how you mention Tame's insults based on appearance only in regards to women. He's perfectly fine insulting men in a similar fashion. But I guess that isn't remarkable to you. Nor are his homophobic remarks.

What you don't object to is rather telling, don't you think?

Not really, since the topic under discussion, according to your own comment, was the appearance of a woman.

It's just funny to me how you jump on anything that you don't consider "gender neutral" here, but are willing to fall all over yourself when it comes to Tame. Kind of brings your sincerity about your pet issues into question.

 

[das_nut]

Not really, unless I ask Robert or Tame to re-set my password, which I changed to something I wouldn't remember, quite a few years ago. I'm not interested in being part of something that's a combination of superficial chitchat and venom, without any substance. I actually hadn't thought of GB for a long time, until Annia's post piqued my curiosity.

If the fact that I'm still nominally a member bothers you, please feel free to have Robert or Tame delete my account. I told Red the same thing a couple of years ago, when he brought up my membership.

You are an adult, you can do that if you want. Doesn't bother me that you still have an account active on a forum you claim not to be a part of.

For someone who's not engaging, you're sure posting a lot.

I'll engage in this thread, since you seem to think that women should be judged if they have a "sex worker" name.

I'm rather curious what you think a sex worker name is, to be honest. Or how sex workers dress. You seem to have a strong opinion on this - at least an opinion strong enough to judge another person based on dress and name.

I think you'd probably accuse some members of my family of having a "sex worker" name, if you knew what names they had. I also think if you knew the true names of some VV members, you think they were sex workers names. You'd also probably think that some people here dress in "sex worker" ways. Now this is an assumption, based on how Violet Blue dresses when she gives a serious talk at a con, but I think I'm pretty safe in that assumption - Violet Blue's dress is kind of west-coast casual. Not really remarkable, and not one I'd assume would be the way a sex worker dresses.

 

[mlp]

You are an adult, you can do that if you want. Doesn't bother me that you still have an account active on a forum you claim not to be a part of.

I have an account on a number of fora that I stopped participating in years ago, and some that I never participated in. To the best of my recollection, VB is the only one I left in enough of a huff that I asked to have my account deleted , and that was because VB was the only one to which I had an emotional connection.

I'll engage in this thread, since you seem to think that women should be judged if they have a "sex worker" name.

I'm rather curious what you think a sex worker name is, to be honest. Or how sex workers dress. You seem to have a strong opinion on this - at least an opinion strong enough to judge another person based on dress and name.

I think you'd probably accuse some members of my family of having a "sex worker" name, if you knew what names they had. I also think if you knew the true names of some VV members, you think they were sex workers names. You'd also probably think that some people here dress in "sex worker" ways. Now this is an assumption, based on how Violet Blue dresses when she gives a serious talk at a con, but I think I'm pretty safe in that assumption - Violet Blue's dress is kind of west-coast casual. Not really remarkable, and not one I'd assume would be the way a sex worker dresses.

Well, for someone who objects to "derailing" a thread, you now have the same conversation going in two different threads. The horror of it!

I'm gathering that you pretty much view women as fungible commodities, since you're attributing comments to me that I didn't make.

Before you dig yourself further into that particular mire, you might want to review the thread in question. Making notes for yourself might be helpful, so that you can start working on telling various women apart.

 

[das_nut]

True. He does the same thing to gay men. And he likes to insult straight men by insinuating that they are gay.

All very admirable qualities for you to approve of.

When did I state I approved of such qualities?

Not really, since the topic under discussion, according to your own comment, was the appearance of a woman.

It's just funny to me how you jump on anything that you don't consider "gender neutral" here, but are willing to fall all over yourself when it comes to Tame. Kind of brings your sincerity about your pet issues into question.

Y'know, there's a forum you can post on where Tame can reply.

As for me, I've agreed with him, and I've disagreed with him. This doesn't really fit into your accusation that I'm aiming to appease the almighty Tame.

But tell me, who do you have the beef with? Is it me? Or is it Tame?

 

[mlp]

When did I state I approved of such qualities?



Y'know, there's a forum you can post on where Tame can reply.

As for me, I've agreed with him, and I've disagreed with him. This doesn't really fit into your accusation that I'm aiming to appease the almighty Tame.

But tell me, who do you have the beef with? Is it me? Or is it Tame?

Oh, I'm quite sure that Tame is "replying" in his usual fashion.

I'm old, and my memory isn't what it used to be, but I don't remember even one occasion that you ever took Tame to task for his misogynistic or his homophobic comments, yet with everyone on here, you're quick to jump on anything that's not gender neutral. I guess it's up to you to figure out whether you're just putting on an act when it comes to the importance that you claim gender neutrality plays in your worldview, or whether the importance of fitting in on GB trumps everything else.

As to your last three questions: I don't give Tame a thought until he's mentioned by someone else. He is what he is, for whatever reasons, and I doubt that he's ever going to change. However, I would say that he shows more integrity in that than you do, because he doesn't pretend (other than in pursuit of his trolling). But then, I don't think that you're at all unusual in your pretence - hypocrisy is quite a common human trait - so I wouldn't say that I have a "beef" with you about it.

 

[das_nut]

For all my sins, I'll have to say that being silent around a certain person is far less wrong than making assumptions about a person based on her name and appearance.

 

[das_nut]

Still waiting for a list of "sex worker" names.

 

[mlp]

Still waiting for you to figure out which woman is which.

 

[das_nut]

Why drag gender into this - say which person is which.