Developing a thick skin

[Ansciess]

So, how do you want to move into the future?

At some point, if a "debate" forum is really going to be about debating (including controversial issues), and people can't calm themselves down or remove themselves from debates or people that are too upsetting for them, and make the argument very personal and accusatory, then I really think there needs to be some very specific guidelines (about whats acceptable and consequences) to make the forum workable.

 

[Freesia]

Wormtongue? Sounds like something out of Harry Potter.

 

[Muggle]

Wormtongue? Sounds like something out of Harry Potter.

Lord of the Rings actually. Gríma Wormtongue.

Wormtail is from Harry Potter.

*crawls back into hole*

 

[Second Summer]

So, how do you want to move into the future?

At some point, if a "debate" forum is really going to be about debating (including controversial issues), and people can't calm themselves down or remove themselves from debates or people that are too upsetting for them, and make the argument very personal and accusatory, then I really think there needs to be some very specific guidelines (about whats acceptable and consequences) to make the forum workable.

My working assumption so far has been that we're all mature people who are able to behave ourselves in a civil manner, which is why we have very few forum rules. (We're not like a certain other forum with a ridiculously long list of rules!) It's nice and simple. I hope we can still keep it that way.

Now if it turns out that this is no longer workable, I'm happy to make some tweaks. I like the idea of "guidelines". That way maybe we can keep the rules more or less as they are, but we can have additional guidelines that clarifies the rules a bit. For example, I would like to clarify what I mean by "name-calling or ad hominem attacks" in the rules. As for sanctions, I would like to avoid a "points" system as my experience with that in the past was not so positive. I like to think that if I've had to have "the talk" with someone, then that is already quite a cruel and unusual punishment. Maybe the rules should still say something about banning as a last resort.

 

[Muggle]

These are some of the rules from another forum I'm on. It's a religious debate and discussion forum so things can get very heated, very quickly.
Anyway these are some of their rules and they work pretty well:

DO NOT make personal attacks (name calling, hostile remarks, accusations, etc.). In discussion, attack ideas and opinions, not the people who hold them. Note that an attack on your ideas and beliefs are not considered a personal attack under our rules even if you identify so closely with your beliefs and ideas that you personally consider an attack on those beliefs or ideas to be an attack on you.

DO NOT make blanket condemnations of peoples, cultures, or religions.

DO remember that other members of this forum are real people just like you with rights and feelings -- treat them as real people even when engaged in heated debate.

DO be tolerant of religions and opinions that differ from your own. You do not have to agree with them or support them, but you must be tolerant of those who express them. Others have as much right to hold and express their views as you do to hold and express yours.
DO remember that you are not your opinions and beliefs. An attack on your opinions and beliefs in debate is not an attack on you. If attacks on your opinions and beliefs seem like personal attacks to you, you will probably want to bow out of topics that turn into heated discussions or debates.

DO expect to be asked for sources to support any unusual factual claims you may make. If you chose to back those claims with poor sources (wikipedia and other encyclopedias, dictionaries, popular press books written by non-experts, out-of-date academic books, etc.), do not be surprised where they are not considered convincing, let alone authoritative. [My favourite rule]

This forum is a discussion and debate board devoted to critical thinking. Beliefs and ideas that may be accepted with little question on some other boards will likely be strongly questioned here. While we ask our more experienced members to be polite in refuting incorrect information and dodgy ideas, this forum is devoted to critical thinking, so expect to see incorrect information and ideas mercilessly (and often bluntly) shot down and be aware that if there are likely mundane explanations for something, they are going to preferred to supernatural explanations. If this is unacceptable to you, chances are that this forum is not the message board for you.

Please do not engage in annoying or excessively rude behavior in the community areas. Annoying and rude behavior includes (but is not limited to):
- Demanding that others prove your claims wrong instead of supporting those claims with evidence they are correct.
- Attacking a post based on typos, poor spelling, or poor grammar, instead of debating its content. Our message board is more akin to a spoken conversation with people from many countries than it is to a term paper.

Just saying, they're pretty good guidelines.

 

[beancounter]

Lord of the Rings actually. Gríma Wormtongue.

Wormtail is from Harry Potter.

*crawls back into hole*

I for one, admire and appreciate people who are well versed in fanatasy and sci-fi mytharc.

 

[thefadedone]

So, how do you want to move into the future?

With a flying Delorean of course!

 

[kibbleforlola]

But really, you can't require someone to toughen up. For one, it's not really possible to change how your brain works, and for two, it's just plain not nice.

 

[beancounter]

But really, you can't require someone to toughen up. For one, it's not really possible to change how your brain works, and for two, it's just plain not nice.

I think it's more about a person changing their perspective, than "toughening up".

 

[Blobbenstein]

thicker skin usually is tougher though.

 

[ledboots]

I think it's more about a person changing their perspective, than "toughening up".

Sometimes people have had experiences in their lives and in the lives of those they love that make certain topics painful and triggering.

Toughening up, growing a thicker skin, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, changing your perspective, stop feeling sorry for yourself, just smile it will all be okay... do these nuggets of advice actually ever help anyone change?

 

[Pickle Juice]

It was only a few weeks ago that you were ranting about posts made on another forum and calling a member of this community "Wormtongue" but maybe you were trying to be civil and kind with that comment.

Here's a perfect example of what we don't want here any more. A nasty, sarcastic personal remark that does nothing for the discussion, but simply indulges your bad feelings toward someone, and provides the opportunity for those who are too passive/aggressive to make their own posts to support it by "liking" your post. It's ugly, selfish, and pointless.

People make mistakes when they lose their tempers. That post was reported and dealt with. I offered to step down as a mod, and I won't be posting like it again.

No one is saying people can't have second chances here if they are willing to admit when they have been nasty and rude, learn from it, and pledge to change. I simply don't see that happening with a number of people here, and this behavior is alienating decent people from posting worthwhile discussions.

 

[Pickle Juice]

Sometimes people have had experiences in their lives and in the lives of those they love that make certain topics painful and triggering.

Toughening up, growing a thicker skin, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, changing your perspective, stop feeling sorry for yourself, just smile it will all be okay... do these nuggets of advice actually ever help anyone change?

We aren't trying to effect personal change. We are requiring that people on this forum treat one another with respect and refrain from making rude, provoking comments. I would assume most of the people here don't behave in real life toward other people the way we have seen them behave on here, so it's not like most of us are incapable of refraining from attacking others.

 

[RabbitLuvr]

We are requiring that people on this forum treat one another with respect and refrain from making rude, provoking comments.

I hope this is meant to apply to Mods, as well.

 

[ledboots]

We aren't trying to effect personal change. We are requiring that people on this forum treat one another with respect and refrain from making rude, provoking comments. I would assume most of the people here don't behave in real life toward other people the way we have seen them behave on here, so it's not like most of us are incapable of refraining from attacking others.

This thread is confusing me because it starts out telling me to grow a thicker skin, and then changes to telling us to be polite.

I think people should treat one another with respect, and that includes, for me, understanding that other people have different life experiences that may make them more sensitive than I to certain topics.

And I have learned to keep my minority opinions to myself on forums.

 

[kibbleforlola]

This thread is confusing me because it starts out telling me to grow a thicker skin, and then changes to telling us to be polite.

I think people should treat one another with respect, and that includes, for me, understanding that other people have different life experiences that may make them more sensitive than I to certain topics.

And I have learned to keep my minority opinions to myself on forums.

I think the lesson we're supposed to learn is "be nice and don't let nary a word slip that might just might be construed as less than positive towards another person; unless the object of that vitriol is you, then suck it up, buttercup! It's a debate forum!"

Doesn't sound like a good policy to me.

 

[Pickle Juice]

I hope this is meant to apply to Mods, as well.

Of course it does. If you have an issue with any of my posts, report them. But do not make the mistake of assuming I am treating people rudely or inappropriately by identifying their posts as problematic. There's a clear difference between telling someone their post is rude and calling them rude. When people behave in unacceptable ways someone has to identify it when they do and explain why it's unacceptable. Of course this is going to offend the person being called out, but it doesn't constitute an unprovoked or inappropriate attack. That should be obvious I would think.

 

[Moll Flanders]

Here's a perfect example of what we don't want here any more. A nasty, sarcastic personal remark that does nothing for the discussion, but simply indulges your bad feelings toward someone, and provides the opportunity for those who are too passive/aggressive to make their own posts to support it by "liking" your post. It's ugly, selfish, and pointless.

People make mistakes when they lose their tempers. That post was reported and dealt with. I offered to step down as a mod, and I won't be posting like it again.

No one is saying people can't have second chances here if they are willing to admit when they have been nasty and rude, learn from it, and pledge to change. I simply don't see that happening with a number of people here, and this behavior is alienating decent people from posting worthwhile discussions.

I'm sorry but how is repeating your nasty comment back to you about a month after you made it a personal comment? The situation that you were talking about on here was nothing to do with me so I don't see why it would be personal to me. It seems you think that you should be able to lose their temper and name-call or be rude but the rest of us should try to be more polite even if we are offended by posts on here.

 

[Pickle Juice]

This thread is confusing me because it starts out telling me to grow a thicker skin, and then changes to telling us to be polite.

I think people should treat one another with respect, and that includes, for me, understanding that other people have different life experiences that may make them more sensitive than I to certain topics.

And I have learned to keep my minority opinions to myself on forums.

I think it's the nature of how discussions evolve. Most threads start off with one idea and end up collections of several. Beancounter may think it is good for people to develop some emotional strength when it comes to perceiving disagreement as a personal attack. I happen to agree, but think the prospects are dim for most folk, so my view is that whether or not any of us manage to become less liable to see every difference of opinion as a personal attack, we have to control our behavior.

I have no doubt plenty of people want to see me as a hypocrite so they can justify their own rudeness and refuse to change, rather than someone who realizes that they made a mistake and said something they shouldn't have said. At least I am willing to acknowledge my mistake. And it's not like I'm expecting anything out of anyone else I haven't expected from myself. Hopefully those who care about this community with learn from this and move on, with a better awareness of how their words affect other people.

 

[beancounter]

Sometimes people have had experiences in their lives and in the lives of those they love that make certain topics painful and triggering.

Toughening up, growing a thicker skin, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, changing your perspective, stop feeling sorry for yourself, just smile it will all be okay... do these nuggets of advice actually ever help anyone change?

Regardless of advice, people won't change unless they feel the need to change. That doesn't automatically discount the advice given.
You know "you can lead a horse to water"....

But I think changing perspective is contructive and falls within "the power of positive thinking". Wheras "pull youself up by your bootstraps", has negative implications.