EPIC Vegan Food!

[Moll Flanders]

The survey I cited included social reasons as one of the options, I see no reason to believe that a significant percent of the people that said they stopped for health reasons were deluding themselves. When I see how many vegetarians and vegans eat I have no trouble believing many return to eating meat, dairy, etc due to health problems.

I think they are deluding themselves to be blunt. I haven't known one person who has stopped being vegan due to health reasons. I have known people who say they stopped being veggie because they felt ill but I do think it's mainly psychological as I said.

There is a discussion here about people who cannot do well on a veg/vegan diet and some others in the veg community have a similar view to mine. Failure to thrive - VeggieBoards

I have met at least 100 vegans since 2006 and I know that most of them are careful about getting the right nutrients to stay healthy because I have had discussions on the matter with them. If you go online to something like the UK Vegan Society there is a lot of information about staying healthy on a vegan diet so I'm not sure where the vegans/vegetarians you know that you think are eating poorly are getting their information from?

I'm not sure whether people are having more trouble with vegan diets than vegetarian, both have potential weaknesses but vegetarians have an easier time getting high quality protein. I don't think most vegans are careful with those things, there are a lot of myths that circulate in the vegan community. For example, many believe that protein leeches calcium from your body and if you're not eating a lot of protein you don't have to worry so much about calcium. According to the EPIC-Oxford data, vegans have higher hip fraction rates than non-vegans and this appears to be due to low calcium intake:

Comparative fracture risk in vegetarians and... [Eur J Clin Nutr. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI

Yes, I remember that study and calcium is obviously important to veg and non veg people. If your diet is less than optimal (which to be honest is most people) then taking calcium is a good idea especially when you are young enough to ensure better bone health when you are older. Regular exercise and vitamin D is also important.

 

[Scorpius]

FWIW, I was put on calcium supplements by my doctor back when I was an omni because my nutrition was poor. Fast forward to 13 years later . . . I'm vegan, the last time it was checked my vitamin D and calcium were normal. I actually have an abnormally high B-12 level (I don't supplement).
It just goes to show you that 1) everybody's body is different and bodies can be weird, and 2) there are a myriad of factors that play into and individual's overall well-being, diet being one tiny part of it.

People claim that they have cured themselves of otherwise incurable/chronic illnesses on a vegan diet, and there are the people in that article complaining of weakness and anemia without meat. I think the later group is the minority, but either way, like I said before, everyone's body responds to things differently.

 

[Moll Flanders]

FWIW, I was put on calcium supplements by my doctor back when I was an omni because my nutrition was poor. Fast forward to 13 years later . . . I'm vegan, the last time it was checked my vitamin D and calcium were normal. I actually have an abnormally high B-12 level (I don't supplement).
It just goes to show you that 1) everybody's body is different and bodies can be weird, and 2) there are a myriad of factors that play into and individual's overall well-being, diet being one tiny part of it.

Yes, I do think that a minority of people may have a reason why they don't respond to a veg based diet, allergies etc... but I definitely don't think it is such a large percentage as some claim. I was talking online this week to a man I've met who has been vegan for about 26 years.

B12 is stored in your body for a while but vegans do have to supplement as the stores can run down so I think it makes sense just to err on the side of caution and take a supplement or B12 fortified foods, but I'm not an expert obviously.

 

[Scorpius]

B12 is stored in your body for a while but vegans do have to supplement as the stores can run down so I think it makes sense just to err on the side of caution and take a supplement or B12 fortified foods, but I'm not an expert obviously.

It's been on the really, really high side for a few years now. I do eat fortified foods almost daily. Like I said, bodies are weird.

 

[Moll Flanders]

It's been on the really, really high side for a few years now. I do eat fortified foods almost daily. Like I said, bodies are weird.

Oh, sorry, I thought you meant you don't take B12 at all. I understand now.

 

[Calliegirl]

I think the majority of people who go back to eating meat do it out of convenience and wanting to fit in with their peers. They just use the excuse that it was making them sick, because that sounds better than I was too lazy to make the effort, or because my friends didn't invite me out to eat anymore.

 

[flyingsnail]

I think they are deluding themselves to be blunt. I haven't known one person who has stopped being vegan due to health reasons.

Its possible some are deluding themselves, but considering that this survey had an option for social reasons I think most people that did it for that reason would have selected that option. The people you know, or I know, aren't a random sample so we can't conclude much from personal experience. From my experience, I've known a lot (but no means all) of vegans and vegetarians that are in poor health for reasons likely relating to their diet. Too little protein, too nutrition poor, etc. The delusion, I think, can go both ways....some vegetarians and vegans suffer health wise but refuse to make the connection with their diet.

But I was once a failed vegetarian, when I first started college I stopped eating meat and started to feel poorly and returning to eating meat resulted in improvements. Years later when I did it again, this time with good knowledge of nutrition, it was a much different story......I felt better.

If you go online to something like the UK Vegan Society there is a lot of information about staying healthy on a vegan diet so I'm not sure where the vegans/vegetarians you know that you think are eating poorly are getting their information from?

I don't think the information at the Vegan Society is that great, but regardless, I wasn't disputing the availability of good nutritional information. What I'm disputing is that people, in general, utilize this information and ignore all the poor information they may hear from other people, industry marketing, diet gurus etc. Good nutritional information can be found online for meat-based diets as well, yet most people don't eat anything close to the recommendations and many people follow unfounded diets (e.g., paleo, etc). Why would vegetarians or vegans be better at following nutritional guidelines than everyone else?

Yes, I remember that study and calcium is obviously important to veg and non veg people. If your diet is less than optimal (which to be honest is most people) then taking calcium is a good idea especially when you are young enough to ensure better bone health when you are older.

I cited this study because it shows that, contrary to your personal experience, that many vegans aren't careful with calcium and are suffering health consequences as a result. The same data shows low vitamin D levels. When you say "taking calcium", I assume you mean a supplement, but that really isn't the answer and people can go wrong with supplements. For example, if you take a calcium supplement with 100% of your daily value you won't actually absorb 100% of your daily value (and the same goes for most nutrients) because the digestive system can only absorb so much calcium at once. Calcium, like most nutrients, needs to come in a steady supply throughout the day.

 

[flyingsnail]

FWIW, I was put on calcium supplements by my doctor back when I was an omni because my nutrition was poor. Fast forward to 13 years later . . . I'm vegan, the last time it was checked my vitamin D and calcium were normal. I actually have an abnormally high B-12 level (I don't supplement).

Blood tests for calcium can't tell you whether your calcium intake is adequate, the body will get calcium from your bones if your intake is not adequate. This test is done to make sure the body is maintaining homeostasis.

And just to be clear, I'm in no way suggesting that vegan or vegetarians result in health problems in general. Instead I'm suggesting that unbalanced vegan and vegetarian diets can result in health problems and, in particular, the consumption of mock meats and mock cheese can result in an unbalanced diet because they can displace nutritious alternatives.

I think the majority of people who go back to eating meat do it out of convenience and wanting to fit in with their peers. They just use the excuse that it was making them sick, because that sounds better than I was too lazy to make the effort, or because my friends didn't invite me out to eat anymore.

I prefer to take people at face value when they say that a vegetarian or vegan diet made them feel poorly....perhaps because I've been there. But in the cited survey people were given an option for social factors. But, at least in the case of a vegetarian diet, its really not that hard to maintain on a social level. Most restaurants have vegetarian options so its really just a matter of dealing with the occasional stupid comment.

 

[Moll Flanders]

I cited this study because it shows that, contrary to your personal experience, that many vegans aren't careful with calcium and are suffering health consequences as a result. The same data shows low vitamin D levels. When you say "taking calcium", I assume you mean a supplement, but that really isn't the answer and people can go wrong with supplements. For example, if you take a calcium supplement with 100% of your daily value you won't actually absorb 100% of your daily value (and the same goes for most nutrients) because the digestive system can only absorb so much calcium at once. Calcium, like most nutrients, needs to come in a steady supply throughout the day.

Right, I wasn't suggesting that veg people should live on supplements and water, they can magically get nutrients from food too.
Team up for healthy bones | The Vegan Society
The vegan diet - Live Well - NHS Choices

 

[flyingsnail]

Right, I wasn't suggesting that veg people should live on supplements and water, they can magically get nutrients from food too.

I wasn't sure what you were suggesting.

Team up for healthy bones | The Vegan Society
The vegan diet - Live Well - NHS Choices

Both of these suffer from the same flaw, they lack details. They don't cite the daily recommended intake, they don't give a sample menu of what you'd have to do to meet the daily recommended intake with the cited foods, etc. And in both cases, a lot of the foods they list as good sources of calcium are fairly low in calcium (e.g., beans, dried fruit, oranges, broccoli, etc). The second lists "dark leafy vegetables", yet only select ones are a good source of calcium. So this information is, I think, pretty bad.....