EPIC Vegan Food!

[Blobbenstein]

But I actually forgot that wheat gluten is almost entirely absent in tryptophan so the protein quality is even worse than I implied earlier.

is tryptophan hard to get on a vegan diet?

Is calcium your main concern with vegan cheese.

I think you should be more specific in what nutrients are missing from mock foods.

 

[Dedalus]

I'm not suggesting that veg*n food is intrinsically inferior to non-veg*n food but that mock foods are generally inferior in taste to the real counterpart.

I understand your argument and I disagree. In terms of meat especially, they are not inferior in taste at all. And one could even argue that they aren't 'mock foods' at all. If I bread and fry a slab of tofu - I don't have to call it 'mock fried chicken breast' - it's just what it is: fried tofu. BBQ seitan is not mock pork - it's seitan with BBQ sauce - and it's damn good. Not to mention I have yet to spit out a piece of gristle.

How so? Where does one find a vegetarian t-bone, vegetarian clams, vegetarian rack of lamb, etc? There are numerous non-vegetarians foods that have no vegetarian counterpart even if you were to include mock foods.

2 out of your 3 examples contain bones and 1 utilizes a shell. Minus replicating unedible carcass' (which would be the epitome of senseless) any meat can be replicated. Meat / flesh is just the vehicle that is seasoned. One can season and similarly prepare seitan, tofu, gardien, etc to the same effect. It's not difficult - and more about texture preference and differences rather than actual flavor which is provided and easily carried over in the seasonings, sauces etc.

Its best to simply argue that veg*n food can be just as delicious as non-veg*n food than to exaggerate matters.

That is my argument.

 

[Envy]

The foods the average person are use to eating are not rich in vegetables, fruits, pulses,etc. If people have to make major changes in their diet so they can maintain adequate nutrition while consuming mock meats than mock meats are no lower a convenient substitute.

The average person would need to change their diet regardless of whether they eat meat or not then, considering that meat in itself doesn't contain even a tenth of all the required minerals and vitamins.

Nutritionally speaking putting some mock cheese on a pasta dish is little different than putting some candy on it.....but that isn't how people think about it.

Which mock cheese are we talking about anyhow? If it's made from nuts or seeds, then I can't see how they are even remotely similar.

So, as I said before, I'm not suggesting that people need to entirely avoid mock meats and mock cheese but that these foods shouldn't be the focus and should be be categorized more akin to potato chips, cookies, etc than real meat and cheese (or nutritious plant foods like whole grains and legumes).

Mock meat is far closer to meat in nutritional value, particularly if it has been fortified with vitamins or minerals. Protein, good fats, fibers, iron, magnesium and phosphorus aren't exactly what you find in your nearest lollipop.

The "epic" foods in the OP are all with mock meats and cheese and most promotional brochures for veganism or vegetarianism highlight mock foods. So I do think that for vegan and vegetarian diets in the west, mock foods are undoubtedly the focus.

That's just one of many. Most promotional sites for veg**nism that I've seen all mention pulses and vegetables as a good base for their diet.

 

[flyingsnail]

is tryptophan hard to get on a vegan diet?

Is calcium your main concern with vegan cheese.

I think you should be more specific in what nutrients are missing from mock foods.

I don't think any amino acid is "hard" to obtain on a vegan diet....but tryptophan is a bit more difficult to source than some of the other animo acids.

I think I was pretty specified about the nutrients. Mock cheese is usually devoid of all nutrients (except fat and starch) unless fortified. Mock meats are a bit better and usually contain low levels of some minerals (but virtually no vitamins) and offer a better mix of macro-nutrients (e.g., they have protein). Citing specified numbers isn't possible since mock meats are made from a variety of substances. But even if you take the best case, that is, a mock meat made primarily from soy protein or vital wheat gluten without much oil or refined starch the nutrient levels are low.

 

[Blobbenstein]

I think I was pretty specified about the nutrients. Mock cheese is usually devoid of all nutrients (except fat and starch) unless fortified.

no matter...but that doesn't seem specific....you are just saying that mock foods don't have much nutrients, not what meat etc do have.
As I've said; I've done ok without much meat in my life, so what nutrients did I miss out on?

 

[flyingsnail]

I understand your argument and I disagree. In terms of meat especially, they are not inferior in taste at all. And one could even argue that they aren't 'mock foods' at all. If I bread and fry a slab of tofu - I don't have to call it 'mock fried chicken breast' - it's just what it is: fried tofu. BBQ seitan is not mock pork - it's seitan with BBQ sauce - and it's damn good.

You may not believe they are inferior but you're also not committed to not eating meat. What does a person without such a commitment usually think? I think the answer is obvious and why you often hear that veg*n food is inferior from non-vegetarians. In fact, I recently went to a vegetarian Chinese restaurant with a bunch of non-vegetarians and the mock meats were by far the least favorite food. I tried to get them to not order them!

I wouldn't call tofu a mock meat unless you formulate it in way that attempts to mimic meat. Seitan, on the other hand, was traditionally used as a mock meat so that is how I would classify it. I think it tastes like cardboard.

Minus replicating unedible carcass' (which would be the epitome of senseless) any meat can be replicated. Meat / flesh is just the vehicle that is seasoned.

It can? How do you replicate a bbq steak? Meat like any other food has flavors in itself....its not just a vehicle that is seasoned. Seasonings are used to compliment and/or enhance the favor of meat.....the same can be said for plant foods. If a meat preparation is heavily seasoned then creating a mock version is easier since the flavor of the meat is less prominent.....but meat is often prepared with fairly minimal seasoning.

Nobody is going to mistake bbq seitan for bbq pork. Vegetarian food doesn't need to mimic non-vegetarian dishes to taste good.

 

[flyingsnail]

no matter...but that doesn't seem specific....you are just saying that mock foods don't have much nutrients, not what meat etc do have.
As I've said; I've done ok without much meat in my life, so what nutrients did I miss out on?

The nutrients found in meat depend on the meat, there is a good deal of variation, and another reason I haven't cited the nutrients in meat is because one can easily find it by searching. Also doing comparisons is made difficult by the fact that manufactures of mock meat don't have to publish full nutritional information where as we have that information for meat (or whole foods in general). You can sort of estimate based on the ingredient list, but obviously if the ingredient list only includes foods with low nutritional value the combination isn't going to have high nutritional value.

I would prefer not to personalize this and without knowing your full medical history, your lab results, your overall diet....there isn't much can be said in terms of what you missed out on.

 

[flyingsnail]

The average person would need to change their diet regardless of whether they eat meat or not then, considering that meat in itself doesn't contain even a tenth of all the required minerals and vitamins.

Actually meat contains most minerals and vitamins and is the best source for some (e.g., iron, zinc and b12). But most people aren't changing their diets, people eat much less vegetables and fruits than recommended and most western governments don't even recommend pulses and people eat few of them on average.

In any case, if eating mock meats only works if one is also eating a good deal of vegetables, etc than I think that position is in agreement with what I've said. Namely that mock meats and cheese can't be used as nutritional substitutes for real meat and cheese and if you replace mock meat and cheese for real meat and cheese and make no other changes you'll end up with a diet that is much lower in nutritional value than the former.

Which mock cheese are we talking about anyhow? If it's made from nuts or seeds, then I can't see how they are even remotely similar.

I have in mind mock cheese like daiya. Nut "cheeses" are usually just nut butters, I don't know why some people refer to them as "cheese".

Mock meat is far closer to meat in nutritional value, particularly if it has been fortified with vitamins or minerals. Protein, good fats, fibers, iron, magnesium and phosphorus aren't exactly what you find in your nearest lollipop.

The candy comment was made in relation to mock cheese, I mentioned in my previous post that mock meats usually have higher nutritional value than mock cheese and that they are at times fortified. But if you fortify a candy bar is it then a nutritious dinner food?

 

[Blobbenstein]

I would prefer not to personalize this and without knowing your full medical history, your lab results, your overall diet....there isn't much can be said in terms of what you missed out on.

yea, I suppose I might have missed out of nutrients....no idea where I got my iron on for ten plus years. I take multivits now. Maybe it was from beans.

just looked it up. There is probably enough iron in a can of baked beans, which I sometimes have every day.

 

[Dedalus]

What does a person without such a commitment usually think? I think the answer is obvious and why you often hear that veg*n food is inferior from non-vegetarians.

Well, you can't account for ignorance. An omnivore's perception of veg*n food is naturally suspicious, mainly because they haven't tried any of it! On the other hand - omni friends of mine have never turned up their noses to anything I've offered them. An omnivore's perception of vegan food will almost always be a pre-conceived notion with bias - because they are being asked to give up something they currently enjoy.

In fact, I recently went to a vegetarian Chinese restaurant with a bunch of non-vegetarians and the mock meats were by far the least favorite food. I tried to get them to not order them!

I find that many restaurants - in particular those that serve Chinese food - don't prepare tofu or any of the other faux meats anything like I do - or would prefer them to. If I based my opinion on tofu from restaurants - I'd never eat it. It is almost always way too wet, soggy or spongy and lacking flavor.

Seitan, on the other hand, was traditionally used as a mock meat so that is how I would classify it. I think it tastes like cardboard.

Perhaps you aren't buying/preparing or being prepared a good representation of it. It's not difficult to make - but it can be done in such a way that it doesn't taste good. I can offer you some recipes that may change your mind. Or alternatively - there are some brands I could recommend that are quite exceptional.

How do you replicate a bbq steak?

BBQ sauce on this:

Meat like any other food has flavors in itself....its not just a vehicle that is seasoned. Seasonings are used to compliment and/or enhance the favor of meat.....the same can be said for plant foods. If a meat preparation is heavily seasoned then creating a mock version is easier since the flavor of the meat is less prominent.....but meat is often prepared with fairly minimal seasoning.

While I agree there is a flavor to flesh and blood, IMO, seasoning plays a vital role in flavoring meat. Omin's are always reaching for the salt, pepper and x number of sauces to smother their meat in.

Nobody is going to mistake bbq seitan for bbq pork.

Eh...a matter of opinion perhaps. No omni has ever turned down anything I've put in front of them - and I live in the capital of factory farming.

Vegetarian food doesn't need to mimic non-vegetarian dishes to taste good

I agree completely. But if it does mimic it - that can be good too.

 

[flyingsnail]

An omnivore's perception of veg*n food is naturally suspicious, mainly because they haven't tried any of it!

Many non-vegetarians have tried vegetarian foods and in terms of ignorance, wouldn't non-vegetarians be better able to compare than vegetarians who will only eat the mock meat? When non-vegetarians tell me that they prefer meats over mock-meats.....I take it at face value.

I find that many restaurants - in particular those that serve Chinese food - don't prepare tofu or any of the other faux meats anything like I do - or would prefer them to.

I have no idea how you prepare tofu or how you prefer it. But when I say Chinese food, I mean actual Chinese food, and the Chinese have been cooking with tofu (and other mock meats) for centuries. The restaurant serves vegetarian Chinese Buddhist cuisine and its rather good, the issue is that mock meats don't impress non-vegetarians. They were happy with the dishes that didn't contain mock meat.

Perhaps you aren't buying/preparing or being prepared a good representation of it. It's not difficult to make - but it can be done in such a way that it doesn't taste good.

I'm sure if you cover it with fatty and/or sugary sauces, etc it will no longer taste like cardboard.....but by itself I think it tastes like cardboard. But regardless of the taste, its not the sort of food I want to eat, so I'm not in need of any recipes. I sample these sorts of foods here and there to see what people are doing with food.

While I agree there is a flavor to flesh and blood, IMO, seasoning plays a vital role in flavoring meat. Omin's are always reaching for the salt, pepper and x number of sauces to smother their meat in.

The role seasonings play depends on the preparation, there are numerous preparations that utilize minimal seasonings. And I don't think non-vegetarians are any more addicted to the salt shaker than vegetarians or vegans, after all, most mock meats are packed with sodium.

The product you referenced is a weird burger patty thing, covering it in BBQ is going to by no means mimic a bbq steak. And one patty has 900 mg of sodium....probably to get rid of the cardboard taste = )

 

[SpiritualPanda]

I'm not sure I understand this, if mock meat has an inferior flavor profile than that is going to apply to vegetarians as well. Its just that vegetarians aren't going to eat meat even if they prefer the taste.


And many veg*n do the same and, in fact, many use mock foods so they can make the same sorts of meals they use to eat when they were "omnis".

Guilty. I am a month in. I would like to think I get a small break while trying to figure out a new way of thinking when it comes to cooking. Everrryyyything changed, and when I am lost on what to make I definitely go for the comfort of a "mock meat meal".

 

[Calliegirl]

Guilty. I am a month in. I would like to think I get a small break while trying to figure out a new way of thinking when it comes to cooking. Everrryyyything changed, and when I am lost on what to make I definitely go for the comfort of a "mock meat meal".

There's nothing wrong with that. I've been a vegan for about 8 years now (and a vegetarian for 25 years before that) and I enjoy 'mock meats', and I'm still alive and kicking.

 

[flyingsnail]

Guilty. I am a month in. I would like to think I get a small break while trying to figure out a new way of thinking when it comes to cooking. Everrryyyything changed, and when I am lost on what to make I definitely go for the comfort of a "mock meat meal".

I'm not trying to condemn any individual...but my concern is whether new vegetarians that turn to mock meats will be meat-free years down the road and maintain good health.

Transiting to a vegetarian diet can be difficult and there are a lot of ways you can do it. Some go cold turkey and rely on mock meats, others slowly remove meat from their diet, etc. If people just used mock meats as transition foods I wouldn't them mind.....but most seemed to get hooked on them and don't learn how to cook nutritious vegetarian and vegan meals.

 

[Blobbenstein]

I suppose I agree with you FS....some veg*n's diets may be lacking in nutrients....and as said before, omnie ones are as well a lot of the time..

But Veg*ns, should probably think a bit more about what they eat, or the supplement they take.

Veg*ns joke about protein....I didn't even know what protein was for most of the time I was a vegetarian, and I suspect a lot of other people don't either.

 

[flyingsnail]

I suppose I agree with you FS....some veg*n's diets may be lacking in nutrients....and as said before, omnie ones are as well a lot of the time..

A lot of veg*n cooking in the west is nutritionally unbalanced and mock meats and cheese are just part of the problem....the general issue here is that western vegetarians/vegans are using food rules that were formulated by cultures that ate meat and cheese. You need new food rules when you remove meat and dairy.

In the vegan community, you also have all those cooky diets that get promoted. All fruit diets, banana rich diets, super low fat diets, etc. It all results in a very confused nutritional landscape. I wonder at times where these diets came from, I mean, who thought up eating a bunch of bananas? The banana industry?

Veg*ns joke about protein....I didn't even know what protein was for most of the time I was a vegetarian, and I suspect a lot of other people don't either.

Yeah....most people don't understand much about protein and that is why good food rules are so important. But in the vegetarian/vegan community there are some commonly stated protein myths that make matters even worse. Whenever I look at the "what I ate today" sort of threads on veg*n websites a good deal of the meals are deficient in protein and, sadly, the ones that are sufficient are usually based on mock meats. Vegetarians and vegans in the west seem to be, generally speaking, fundamentally unaware of how to get sufficient protein from unprocessed plant foods.

Western vegetarians/vegans are trying to reinvent the wheel....but so far are just creating squares.

 

[Scorpius]

A lot of veg*n cooking in the west is nutritionally unbalanced and mock meats and cheese are just part of the problem....the general issue here is that western vegetarians/vegans are using food rules that were formulated by cultures that ate meat and cheese. You need new food rules when you remove meat and dairy.

In the vegan community, you also have all those cooky diets that get promoted. All fruit diets, banana rich diets, super low fat diets, etc. It all results in a very confused nutritional landscape. I wonder at times where these diets came from, I mean, who thought up eating a bunch of bananas? The banana industry?


Yeah....most people don't understand much about protein and that is why good food rules are so important. But in the vegetarian/vegan community there are some commonly stated protein myths that make matters even worse. Whenever I look at the "what I ate today" sort of threads on veg*n websites a good deal of the meals are deficient in protein and, sadly, the ones that are sufficient are usually based on mock meats. Vegetarians and vegans in the west seem to be, generally speaking, fundamentally unaware of how to get sufficient protein from unprocessed plant foods.

Western vegetarians/vegans are trying to reinvent the wheel....but so far are just creating squares.

J/w . . . where did you get your degree in clinical nutrition??

 

[ledboots]

I think lots of vegans know exactly where to get sufficient protein from plants. My husband, son, and I have been vegan for a decade. It's not that difficult for most to obtain sufficient protein, but there are protein powders out there that help the active, thin, or low appetite type of person.

And mock meats are not junk food, many of them have quite decent protein content. I don't get the opposition to mock meats that so many veg*ns seem to have.

@flyingsnail, maybe you could post a weekly sample vegan menu that you would consider healthy? That may be helpful.

 

[flyingsnail]

And mock meats are not junk food, many of them have quite decent protein content. I don't get the opposition to mock meats that so many veg*ns seem to have.

I don't think having protein absolves a food from junk-food status, a junk-food is a food that is rich in calories but poor in nutrients. While not the most nutritious foods, I wouldn't call soy protein isolate or wheat gluten, in themselves, junk foods....but mock meats typically combine these with oils and refined starches that are devoid of nutrients and the end result is a junk food. But some don't make heavy use of oils or refined starch. On the other hand mock cheese like daiya is an overt junk food, you'd be better off eating a chocolate bar. The only reason people don't think of daiya as they do chocolate bars is because they are operating under their prior food rules, food rules which are no longer valid when you shift from real cheese to mock cheese.

I don't get why so many veg*n are keen on mock meat = )

@flyingsnail, maybe you could post a weekly sample vegan menu that you would consider healthy? That may be helpful.

Well I'm not the best person to create a vegan menu, strictly speaking, since I don't pay attention to all the ingredients vegans avoid. But a daily menu like this would be well balanced and supply a good deal of quality protein without the use of mock meats or cheese:

Breakfast: Granola with soymilk with 1~2 servings of fruit (on the side or in the cereal).
Lunch: Low fat Bean salad sandwich (chickpea salad, black bean salad, etc) on whole wheat bread with a serving of fresh vegetables.
Snack: Almonds with dark chocolate pieces.
Dinner: Red lentil tomato sauce over 100% whole wheat pasta served with a serving of green peas and 1~2 cups worth of sauteed collards or kale.
Dessert: Fruit.

Now take a similar menu that I think would be more common:

Breakfast: Granola with almond milk with some fruit
Lunch: Veggie sandwich with mock cheese on white bread.
Snack: Some chips
Dinner: Tomato sauce with some fake chicken pieces over white pasta with some white garlic bread.
Dessert: Coconut ice cream.

This menu is not nutritionally adequate and too low in protein.

J/w . . . where did you get your degree in clinical nutrition??

I don't know what "J/w" means nor do I understand the relevance of the question....but I don't work in the health care field so I don't need nor have a degree in clinical nutrition.

 

[Scorpius]

I don't know what "J/w" means nor do I understand the relevance of the question....but I don't work in the health care field so I don't need nor have a degree in clinical nutrition.

It means just wondering.

Also just wondering, maybe you don't 'get' why so many vegans are 'keen on mock meats' because you aren't vegan yourself.

For someone who 1) isn't vegan, and 2) doesn't have some sort of professional degree in nutrition, you sure do have a lot to say about what constitutes a perfectly healthy vegan diet.

*I* think its totally possible to be a perfectly healthy vegan and incorporate some 'junk' mock meats (as you call them) into your diet. Its all about moderation, no?

Just an few observations.