EPIC Vegan Food!

[Calliegirl]

You're thinking of veganism as a diet, but it's an ethical lifestyle. Although it's being promoted by some as a healthy diet, at it's heart, it's a way to live ethically and as cruelty-free as possible. Most people aren't doing it for the health benefits, those are just a nice added bonus. I think that's where there's a lot of confusion for people. Most people who are claiming to be eating a vegan diet for health, are actually eating a strict vegetarian diet.

I am trying to eat healthier, more fresh fruits and veggies, and very little processed foods. But, the important part isn't whether or not I choose an orange over a candy bar as a snack, it's that I'm not contributing to the suffering of animals.

 

[Blobbenstein]

I don't think giving someone a mock dish that is traditionally prepared with meat and/or cheese is going to convince them that vegetarian food can be just as delicious as what they are use to eating.

when I used to watch Come Dine With Me, people were always complaining about the (real) meat...it was too dry, it wasn't cooked long enough, it was cooked too long....or whatever....so not all is always rosey in the garden of meat.

 

[ledboots]

I guess this depends on what you mean by "really wants". Since a vegetarian can easily avoid fake meat I imagine if someone was really motivated to be vegetarian they would be one regardless of what fake meat options exist. Yet I'm often told that fake meats are a good tool to promote veg*nism because they make it easier to be vegetarian which would imply that the overall taste and quality of veg*n food is a factor.

In any case, I think emphasizing mock foods that have inferior taste makes convincing people to be vegetarian (or to eat less meat) that much more difficult.


People do, at times, associate vegetarianism with "veggies" but many people are aware of fake meats as well. I don't think giving someone a mock dish that is traditionally prepared with meat and/or cheese is going to convince them that vegetarian food can be just as delicious as what they are use to eating.


My personal experience is much different than yours. But I'm sure there are plenty of long-term vegetarians that regularly eat mock meats, but that doesn't mean mock meats are a good way to promote a meat-free culinary culture.


Personally I have trouble promoting overt junk foods due to the impact they have on peoples health but there are plenty of greasy comfort foods that don't contain fake meat.

If you don't like mock meats, you don't have to use them or promote them for others. Personally, I think that anything that helps people transition and stay vegetarian is a win.

It isn't easy for most people used to eating fatty salty meat meals to transition. They come to veg forums all the time asking why veganism makes them feel so weak, tired, and dizzy. Upon further investigation, the new vegan is eating about a third to half of the calories he was consuming as an omni. Making it easy to eat enough *food* at first is a win. Most people can't cook.

The mock meats, while high in sodium, are generally much healthier than a chunk of animal flesh that is usually salted, fatty, and cooked in an unhealthy manner with extra fats and unhealthy gravies or sauces.

The fake meats were sure helpful when I transitioned to veg and had 2 kids and a disabled husband to feed after working a full day. Making a crockpot veggie stew and adding some fake beef isn't a terrible thing to do. Making big Gardien burgers on the bbq grill and using big rolls and good toppings isn't ingesting one animal.

Again, though, it's about the animals for this vegan. It's not my responsibility to convert everyone to any one way of eating vegan food. For me, it's to open their eyes to the abuses and disgusting way that humans breed, raise, and slaughter creatures for their own greed. I'm not the boss of their health or food choices.

Vegan is more than eating healthy animal-free meals. It's making sure my household products, and things I wear and use in my daily life are cruelty free. Mock meats are a good thing, imo. The more choices for more kinds of people going meat free, the better.

 

[flyingsnail]

You're thinking of veganism as a diet, but it's an ethical lifestyle.

I'm aware that veganism is considered a "lifestyle", but I'm talking about the food aspect here because the OP was about food. Personally I'm not vegan and can't make sense out of veganism as an ethical, philosophic specking, point of view. My primarily concern is getting western society to transition to a meat free, or at least mostly meat free, culinary culture.

when I used to watch Come Dine With Me, people were always complaining about the (real) meat...it was too dry, it wasn't cooked long enough, it was cooked too long....or whatever....so not all is always rosey in the garden of meat.

You watch a lot of dining shows = ) But, of course, many restaurants and individuals prepare poor dishes. But my point is that,on average, people who eat meat or cheese aren't going to be impressed with dishes made with mock meat and mock cheese and when these dishes are held up as the pinnacle of plant-based cuisine it, I think, reinforces the idea that vegetarian foods are inferior foods.

 

[flyingsnail]

If you don't like mock meats, you don't have to use them or promote them for others. Personally, I think that anything that helps people transition and stay vegetarian is a win.

My concern isn't whether I personally like them or not, but whether or not they are an effective way to promote vegetarian diets in western culture. The common assertion that they help people transition and stay vegetarian is just that, an assertion, yet its cited as a fact. At the moment there is very little in terms of experimental research that has determined what strategies are most effective at promoting meat reduction in western societies. And since the companies that produce mock meats all have marketing departments that heavily market their products to vegetarians and vegans, people tend to have a lopsided perspective of vegetarian and vegan food.

Upon further investigation, the new vegan is eating about a third to half of the calories he was consuming as an omni. Making it easy to eat enough *food* at first is a win. Most people can't cook.

This happens but its based on a fundamental misunderstandings of vegetarian nutrition, adding mock meats isn't going to resolve the fundamental issue here and eating a bunch of your calories in mock meats is going to result in other nutritional problems. I think the promotion of sound information on vegetarian nutrition, not mock meats, is the solution to avoiding these sorts of issues.

The mock meats, while high in sodium, are generally much healthier than a chunk of animal flesh that is usually salted, fatty, and cooked in an unhealthy manner with extra fats and unhealthy gravies or sauces.

I don't agree with this, substituting mock meats for real meat is going to lower the nutritional value of ones diet. While you can certainly find cases where the mock meat is likely more healthful than the real meat not all meats are fatty, heavily salted, etc and some are known to benefit your health. The primary issue with meat, health wise, is the presence of long-chain saturated fat and in some cases (e.g., red meat) the promotion of certain cancers. The presence of cholesterol can be a factor for sensitive individuals as well. Mock meats usually aren't rich in saturated fat, and of course lack cholesterol, but on the cancer front we have no idea whether they promote cancer or not....which is plausible given that they are heavily processed, packed with preservatives, etc.

But its the lower nutritional value that, I think, is the most concerning factor for the promotion of vegetarian diets. Mock cheese is often worse, nutrition wise, than mock meat...mock cheeses like daiya are little different than pouring candy or chocolate over your dish. Actually....chocolate is more nutritious. That is what worries me, people are starting to use overt junk foods in their cooking and they aren't categorizing it as such.

And its not that I avoid all junk food personally, I just prefer my junk food to come in the form of dark chocolate, sweets, etc. If someone prefers theirs in the form of mock meat and cheese, I'm fine with that, but one shouldn't mistake these foods nutrition wise for their real counterparts an they should be minimized and I don't think they should be used to promote vegetarian/vegan diets for a variety of reasons.

In any case, vegan culinary culture tends to be so bipolar. On the one hand you have people promoting raw diets, super low-fat diets, etc and on the other hand the sort of "epic" foods in the OP. There is rarely any middle ground, what about the sort of healthful traditional foods we know contribute to long-term health?

 

[Envy]

I'm fine with that, but one shouldn't mistake these foods nutrition wise for their real counterparts an they should be minimized and I don't think they should be used to promote vegetarian/vegan diets for a variety of reasons.

Why not? I read labels, and many of them are at a whole pretty nutritious, the issue regarding soy protein aside. I've seen products that are pretty close to things like fish and chicken in terms of protein content, with more fibers and less saturated fat as a bonus. In addition, you don't have to worry that they have been fed hormones or other medicines. It's true that they are considered inferior in some parts, but that's not enough to make a point that the usage should be minimized, in my opinion. You talk about not being extreme, but it feels like you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater here.

 

[Scorpius]

Eeeeeveryone's a critict.

 

[Calliegirl]

I'm aware that veganism is considered a "lifestyle", but I'm talking about the food aspect here because the OP was about food. Personally I'm not vegan and can't make sense out of veganism as an ethical, philosophic specking, point of view. My primarily concern is getting western society to transition to a meat free, or at least mostly meat free, culinary culture.

It's considered a lifestyle because it extends beyond just diet. It includes not wearing animals skins, silk or wool, not using products with animal ingredients in it, and not supporting or patronizing businesses that abuse or exploit animals, like circuses and rodeos.

If you're advocating for a healthy meat-free diet, that would be more of a whole food vegetarian diet, rather than a vegan one. The reason mock meats and unhealthy comfort foods work to help people convert to veganism is because those people are not motivated by the health aspects, they're motivated by their compassion and ethics. People who are only concerned with eating a healthy diet are more likely to become vegetarians, rather than vegans.

 

[flyingsnail]

Why not? I read labels, and many of them are at a whole pretty nutritious, the issue regarding soy protein aside. I've seen products that are pretty close to things like fish and chicken in terms of protein content, with more fibers and less saturated fat as a bonus.

Nutritional labels provide very incomplete nutritional information, in the US they only have to cite the amount of fat, protein, carbohydrates and 4 vitamins/minerals. Due to their naturally low nutritional value, mock meats will sometimes be fortified with a handful of nutrients depending how the company is trying to market the product. Mock meats often have similar amounts of protein per serving as real meat, but knowing the quality of the protein is often difficult and not information food manufactures have to provide. For example, if a mock meat is primarily made from wheat gluten the quality of the protein is going to be much less than typical meats where as a soy based mock meat will be more similar to meat. But I didn't really have in mind protein but rather vitamins and minerals, meat tends to be one of the primary sources of some vitamins and minerals in the western diet and mock meats don't provide the same nutrients.

It's true that they are considered inferior in some parts, but that's not enough to make a point that the usage should be minimized, in my opinion. You talk about not being extreme, but it feels like you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater here.

I've hinted at a few different arguments against focusing on mock meats. In terms of health and nutrition, I've been trying to avoid talking about healthful eating per se and instead adequate nutrition. At the very least the sort of cuisine promoted by the vegetarian/vegan community needs to be nutritionally adequate.....but that is often not the case and many people fail to thrive on vegetarian/vegan diets due to poor nutritional information. Mock meats, mock cheese, etc all tend to have poor nutritional value and can't provide the same foundation, nutrition wise, as meat does in the traditional western diet.

I'm not sure in what sense I'm throwing the baby with the bathwater here. What I'm suggesting is that mock foods shouldn't be the focus of western veg*n cuisine but eating mock meats, etc occasionally isn't an issue health/nutrition wise.

 

[flyingsnail]

It's considered a lifestyle because it extends beyond just diet. It includes not wearing animals skins, silk or wool, not using products with animal ingredients in it, and not supporting or patronizing businesses that abuse or exploit animals, like circuses and rodeos.

Yes, like I said, I'm aware that veganism is a "lifestyle" and is more than diet.....but I'm just talking about food at the moment.

The reason mock meats and unhealthy comfort foods work to help people convert to veganism is because those people are not motivated by the health aspects, they're motivated by their compassion and ethics.

I've yet to see anybody demonstrate that mock meats do in fact help convert people, people will cite anecdotes but there are numerous people that went vegan eating mock meats and are now ex-vegan. Its possible that mock meats help people when they first decide to be vegetarian or vegan, I'm really not sure, but if the routine consumption of mock meats, cheese, etc tends to result in nutritionally inadequate diets, and I think it does, than you're going to have a lot of ex-veg*ns on your hands. And that is precisely what we have.

My points on nutrition have been related to the nutritionally adequacy of diets, a diet can be nutritionally adequate but be unhealthy. The vegetarian/vegan community needs to promote cuisine that is, at very least, nutritionally adequate if it wants people to remain vegetarian or vegan long-term.

Many people in the veg*n world that are concerned with "healthy eating" promote diets that are unproven and often nutritionally inadequate. This is the other side of the coin that, I think, makes it difficult for people to get sound information on vegetarian and vegan nutrition.

 

[Blobbenstein]

what nutrients are absent from mock meats, cheese etc?

I'm sure there are, I'm just not sure what. I've hardly eaten meat in my life, and apart from being overweight and consequently diabetic, I am fairly healthy. I did start taking vit&minerals around the time I greatly reduced(stopped to a large part) eating eggs and dairy(8 years ago), but I didn't take them regularly though my previous life.

when I was a kid I did eat vegetables and fairly healthily, but not so much as an adult....I must have been getting my vitamin C from potatoes for a long time, as I rarely ate fruit.

 

[Blobbenstein]

Seitan – A High Lysine Food

Jack Norris RD» Blog Archive » Seitan – A High Lysine Food

I had thought it was low in lysine...if the lysine level is ok, then maybe for protein it is fine?

 

[Envy]

But I didn't really have in mind protein but rather vitamins and minerals, meat tends to be one of the primary sources of some vitamins and minerals in the western diet and mock meats don't provide the same nutrients.

That shouldn't be a problem if you compliment it with vegetables, fruits and pulses.

Mock meats, mock cheese, etc all tend to have poor nutritional value and can't provide the same foundation, nutrition wise, as meat does in the traditional western diet.

Lesser is not the same as poor. It's a subjective matter of course, but if mock meat have poor nutritional value, then what would you make of candy, chips and other snacks like that?

What I'm suggesting is that mock foods shouldn't be the focus of western veg*n cuisine

I don't think that people say that. It's more likely that mock meat for them is an equally important ingredient to a balanced eating habit. Just because you like to eat faux meat doesn't mean that you won't enjoy nut patties, bean stews and lentil lasagna.

 

[sandersj1980]

The funny thing is I find that vegan food has a much better taste than the processed garbage that I used to consume.

 

[Second Summer]

Seitan – A High Lysine Food

Jack Norris RD» Blog Archive » Seitan – A High Lysine Food

I had thought it was low in lysine...if the lysine level is ok, then maybe for protein it is fine?

Yes, that is my understanding of it. I was surprised too when I first read about seitan having a good level of lysine since it's made from wheat.

The funny thing is I find that vegan food has a much better taste than the processed garbage that I used to consume.

Hear, hear! I always found meat and eggs somewhat disgusting, at least in some dishes. In some meat dishes you can see the veins and muscles etc. And fried eggs have this sticky, gooie thing. There are no such issues with vegan foods.

 

[Dedalus]

Hear, hear! I always found meat and eggs somewhat disgusting, at least in some dishes. In some meat dishes you can see the veins and muscles etc. And fried eggs have this sticky, gooie thing. There are no such issues with vegan foods.

Exactly. I don't quite get the 'vegan foods are inferior' argument in this thread at all. Sure they are viewed as inferior by uninformed omnivores. Which is why it is important re: the OP's link, that we champion even junk vegan food.

We have everything you have, eat everything you can eat; WITHOUT the killing and suffering.

I also love the argument omni's have that tofu is gross. Well, it doesn't contain blood, excrement, tendons, gristle or pus; which they eat at every meal. ...and we're the mad ones.

 

[Second Summer]

I also love the argument omni's have that tofu is gross. Well, it doesn't contain blood, excrement, tendons, gristle or pus; which they eat at every meal. ...and we're the mad ones.

Absolutely. Uncooked, plain tofu straight from the package is actually one of my daughter's favourite foods.

 

[flyingsnail]

what nutrients are absent from mock meats, cheese etc?

Most mock cheese is usually made from refined starch and oil so its missing virtually every nutrient...but at times they fortify it with calcium. Mock meat does better, assuming its made from wheat gluten or soy protein isolate, and has small/trace amounts of some minerals but the nutrient levels are much lower than found in real meat. Sometimes mock meats will be fortified with a few nutrients to make them look nutritious on the label.

Jack Norris RD» Blog Archive » Seitan – A High Lysine Food
I had thought it was low in lysine...if the lysine level is ok, then maybe for protein it is fine?

Lysine is a limiting animo acid in wheat gluten so it is low in lysine. I found this guys post strange, when someone pointed out that lysine is a limiting amino acid in gluten he said:

"Yes, that’s true. But it was possible that, like for tryptophan in wheat gluten, it might have been particularly low in lysine, making it a low-lysine food even despite the fact that there is so much protein per serving."

That is, since wheat gluten isn't "particularly low" in lysine he has decided to call it a high lysine food. Strange logic really.... But I actually forgot that wheat gluten is almost entirely absent in tryptophan so the protein quality is even worse than I implied earlier.

 

[flyingsnail]

That shouldn't be a problem if you compliment it with vegetables, fruits and pulses.

You can offset low nutrient foods with foods rich in nutrients, but mock meats are being touted because people can replace them in the foods they are use to eating. The foods the average person are use to eating are not rich in vegetables, fruits, pulses,etc. If people have to make major changes in their diet so they can maintain adequate nutrition while consuming mock meats than mock meats are no lower a convenient substitute.

Lesser is not the same as poor. It's a subjective matter of course, but if mock meat have poor nutritional value, then what would you make of candy, chips and other snacks like that?

I'm not sure what you consider subjective here, but mock meats (and especially mock cheese) have low nutritional value and nutrition wise can't provide the same foundation meat has in the western diet.

Candy, chips, etc also have poor nutritional value but people usually aren't replacing meat with candy, etc and correctly categorize them as junk food. That is the problem with mock meat and cheese, people are using them with the same model they used real meat and cheese but the two have major nutritional differences. Nutritionally speaking putting some mock cheese on a pasta dish is little different than putting some candy on it.....but that isn't how people think about it.

So, as I said before, I'm not suggesting that people need to entirely avoid mock meats and mock cheese but that these foods shouldn't be the focus and should be be categorized more akin to potato chips, cookies, etc than real meat and cheese (or nutritious plant foods like whole grains and legumes).

I don't think that people say that.

The "epic" foods in the OP are all with mock meats and cheese and most promotional brochures for veganism or vegetarianism highlight mock foods. So I do think that for vegan and vegetarian diets in the west, mock foods are undoubtedly the focus.

 

[flyingsnail]

Exactly. I don't quite get the 'vegan foods are inferior' argument in this thread at all. Sure they are viewed as inferior by uninformed omnivores.

If you're referring to my argument than I think perhaps you're not understanding it correctly. I'm not suggesting that veg*n food is intrinsically inferior to non-veg*n food but that mock foods are generally inferior in taste to the real counterpart. Therefore non-vegetarians are naturally going to think of vegetarian food as inferior when the culinary focus is mock foods. The solution here, I would suggest, is to instead focus on traditional vegetarian foods rather than mock foods.

We have everything you have, eat everything you can eat; WITHOUT the killing and suffering.

How so? Where does one find a vegetarian t-bone, vegetarian clams, vegetarian rack of lamb, etc? There are numerous non-vegetarians foods that have no vegetarian counterpart even if you were to include mock foods.

Its best to simply argue that veg*n food can be just as delicious as non-veg*n food than to exaggerate matters.