Fourth Wave Feminism

[FortyTwo]

Nothing a woman does to a man can constitute harassment.

Nothing a black person does to a white person can constitute harassment.

The Queen of England isn't privileged because she's female.

The Queen of England is privileged because she's white.

Any male member of a privileged black group can't be privileged because they're black.

Any male member of an unprivileged black or white group can't be unprivileged because they're male.

Any female member of a privileged black group can't be privileged because they're both black and female.


Making sense out of that would be as futile as trying to catch smoke in a net.

None of this is true though? I've never said anything of the sort.

Privilege applies to different areas of our lives and is taken into consideration during different activities.

 

[kazyeeqen]

Come on, stick to your guns.

He's not being inconsistent.

 

[das_nut]

He's not being inconsistent.

Oh? If privilege is relative (and it seems that it is - one group can be more privileged than another group, but less privileged than a third group), then it is obvious that according to his standard should apply.

 

[Freesia]

I kind of think this is the sort of thing where, you either get it or you dont.

 

[das_nut]

I kind of think this is the sort of thing where, you either get it or you dont.

Like believing in Jesus?

 

[Freesia]

.

 

[Clueless Git]

I kind of think this is the sort of thing where, you either get it or you dont.

That, unfortunately, does appear to be the problem with people and consistency. Yes.

Even more unfortunately it may just be that certain people have agendas which consistency simply does not suit.

 

[das_nut]

Even more unfortunately it may just be that certain people have agendas which consistency simply does not suit.

I think it stems more from having a beliefs based on gut emotions, and not thinking it out. The "you either get it or you don't" translates to "you either have this gut feeling or you don't".

It must get frustrating to argue, since its easy enough to assume that everyone has the same gut feelings, not understanding that our experiences all differ.

 

[Clueless Git]

I think it stems more from having a beliefs based on gut emotions, and not thinking it out. The "you either get it or you don't" translates to "you either have this gut feeling or you don't".

It must get frustrating to argue, since its easy enough to assume that everyone has the same gut feelings, not understanding that our experiences all differ.

You're a far kinder man than I, das.

 

[Mischief]

He's not being inconsistent.

I agree that he's not being inconsistent.

 

[FortyTwo]

Even more unfortunately it may just be that certain people have agendas which consistency simply does not suit.

Ah, yes, the agenda where you don't treat people who are automatically rejected by society based on their own biological features as ****. Guilty as charged.

I think it stems more from having a beliefs based on gut emotions, and not thinking it out. The "you either get it or you don't" translates to "you either have this gut feeling or you don't".

It must get frustrating to argue, since its easy enough to assume that everyone has the same gut feelings, not understanding that our experiences all differ.

What's frustrating is that I've been restating the exact same damn thing for five pages, grounded in years of social science and founded on the premise of giving people the advantages they deserve in life, and still nothing seems to be clicking, and in the meantime I've been accused of both being inconsistent with my beliefs and having 'an agenda' (which is apparently a bad word, even though all you're saying is that I have things I hope to see accomplished, which I do). My greatest transgression is probably the fact that I don't understand fully certain racial and religious tensions in Sri Lanka. Ha! Got me there, I guess.

Oh, and you don't have to try and convince me that everyone's experiences are different. I promise you I fully understand that. That doesn't change the fact that privilege exists.

Anyways, Freesia is right, you either get it or you don't, and if by some chance I'm the one in this situation who doesn't get it, then I'm glad I don't. If that is the case I think the ones who don't get it have better intentions than those who do.

Not that you don't have good intentions. It's just that you fail to understand how some of the assumptions you make might hurt others. I'm not immune from this, and I'm sure I sometimes say things that are hurtful and a result of not understanding the bounds of my own privilege and how it affects others, but I'm glad I'm at least trying.

I hope that at some point you 'get' it and understand what the issue with this whole mess is.

 

[das_nut]

Oh, I get your point - that an individual act of aggression against some groups based on race/ethnicity/sexual identity/sexual orientation/whatever, is less wrong than an individual act of aggression against other groups.

I just happen to disagree.

It's pretty easy to condemn all acts of aggression based on biological characteristics. We don't have to triage this. In fact, it takes less effort to condemn such acts than it takes to tally up a subjective privilege assessment and figure out who is wrong.

 

[Clueless Git]

In fact, it takes less effort to condemn such acts than it takes to tally up a subjective privilege assessment and figure out who is wrong.

Aye, the mathematics of any subjective 'right-v-wrong' system are truly horrendous.

Ultimately that's because one of the variables required to work out all the permutations of a subjective system happens to be whatever number the total population of the planet is at any given time.

 

[FortyTwo]

Oh, I get your point - that an individual act of aggression against some groups based on race/ethnicity/sexual identity/sexual orientation/whatever, is less wrong than an individual act of aggression against other groups.

I just happen to disagree.

It's pretty easy to condemn all acts of aggression based on biological characteristics. We don't have to triage this. In fact, it takes less effort to condemn such acts than it takes to tally up a subjective privilege assessment and figure out who is wrong.

You know what's even easier than both of them? Stating things like this from a place of privilege.

It is difficult for you - and I, in most situations, as despite my sexuality I am white and male - to treat every transgression like every other, because the constant violence and dehumanization and God knows what else of trans* and PoC and non-binary individuals face isn't personal for us. When it does get personal, on the very few occasions that someone with less privilege attacks someone with privilege based on their area of privilege, we don't have a right to act up. For that individual transgression? Sure. But just because someone who is black makes a few jokes about white people or someone trans* complains about how awful cis people are doesn't mean that we suddenly have a right to act like we, as a population, are being attacked, because we're not.

You can condemn all acts of aggression and still understand that some need to be targeted, brought to light, and dealt with to a greater degree than others because the playing field isn't leveled yet and we still have the advantage in basically every situation. We don't get to generalize. We don't get to be ****** because what we might incidentally deal with and then feel annoyed and then go on with our lives, continuing to have an advantage in basically every situation, is nothing even close to the fact that certain people are openly mocked and sexually assaulted and murdered in our society at a greater frequency than others simply because they are who they are and we have a dangerously discriminatory society with very little grasp of what's actually going on.

In the hypothetical situation that PoC outnumber and discriminate against white people or trans* people establish some dictatorship and start mass cullings of cis people or gay people build giant robots and take over the world something like that, then yes, you can say "but what about the white, cis, straight people?" But until that last one unless one of these happens, there will always be bigger problems than whether someone who is privileged in every area of their lives gets their feelings hurt.

 

[das_nut]

You know what's even easier than both of them? Stating things like this from a place of privilege.

Privilege isn't a place, it's a scale.

It is difficult for you - and I, in most situations, as despite my sexuality I am white and male - to treat every transgression like every other, because the constant violence and dehumanization and God knows what else of trans* and PoC and non-binary individuals face isn't personal for us.

Stop being a bloody racist and sexist and assuming you know what people have or have not experienced based on the color of their skin or their biological gender. A lot of people get a lot of insults due to their station in life, and what choices they've made. Don't act like they'll shrug off another insult just because it's in a different vein than what they usually experience.

When it does get personal, on the very few occasions that someone with less privilege attacks someone with privilege based on their area of privilege, we don't have a right to act up. For that individual transgression? Sure. But just because someone who is black makes a few jokes about white people or someone trans* complains about how awful cis people are doesn't mean that we suddenly have a right to act like we, as a population, are being attacked, because we're not.

There's no monolithic white population or cis population. To believe otherwise is to engage in bigotry.

You can condemn all acts of aggression and still understand that some need to be targeted, brought to light, and dealt with to a greater degree than others because the playing field isn't leveled yet and we still have the advantage in basically every situation. We don't get to generalize. We don't get to be ****** because what we might incidentally deal with and then feel annoyed and then go on with our lives, continuing to have an advantage in basically every situation

Could you do me a favor and please get out more? Learn how other people live. You think that whiteness or cisness is some magical shield? It's not. They can be in situations where they are mocked and discriminated against every day. And what may be a harmless insult to you, in what appears to be a pampered life where you are free from most insults, can be the straw that breaks the camel's back for them.

In the hypothetical situation that PoC outnumber and discriminate against white people or trans* people establish some dictatorship and start mass cullings of cis people or gay people build giant robots and take over the world something like that, then yes, you can say "but what about the white, cis, straight people?" But until that last one unless one of these happens, there will always be bigger problems than whether someone who is privileged in every area of their lives gets their feelings hurt.

Again, please, stop the bigotry. Stop acting like you know what a person's life is like just because of their skin color or their gender or sexual orientation or sexual identity. Because this is the real world, and life doesn't work that way. There are people in all walks of life that have problems. And another slur ain't helping them.

It's easy enough to say "F*** all acts of bigotry". We don't need to rate them. We don't need to dismiss some as being less offensive. We can be against them all. It's easy enough to do.

 

[FortyTwo]

Oh. Oh dear. Wow. Um, okay. Where to start?

Privilege isn't a place, it's a scale.

Yes, and the highest part of the scale could be called a place.

Stop being a bloody racist and sexist and assuming you know what people have or have not experienced based on the color of their skin or their biological gender. A lot of people get a lot of insults due to their station in life, and what choices they've made. Don't act like they'll shrug off another insult just because it's in a different vein than what they usually experience.

Wow, seriously? I'm a racist and sexist? Really? You're going to pull the reverse racism card?

Okay, that's pretty funny. Sorry for being racist against white people and sexist against men. Both of which are impossible. Also, I belong to both categories.

In conclusion, no, I'm not actually sorry because what you described isn't a thing, and even if it was it definitely isn't my thing. Thanks for the laugh though.

There's no monolithic white population or cis population. To believe otherwise is to engage in bigotry.

You assume that everything is equal, is the thing. It should be equal. It's not. Our society sucks. You can't be bigoted against a group that's in power because they are in power. It's ******* awful but it's how our society currently works. You don't want to change that? Because you can't change it without challenging it. And you're not going to challenge it by continuing to have a fit about sporadic and meaningless incidents where someone from a privileged group cries about the fact that their privilege has been pointed out to them.

Could you do me a favor and please get out more? Learn how other people live. You think that whiteness or cisness is some magical shield? It's not. They can be in situations where they are mocked and discriminated against every day. And what may be a harmless insult to you, in what appears to be a pampered life where you are free from most insults, can be the straw that breaks the camel's back for them.

No, it's not a shield. But they aren't discriminated against because they're white or cis. Just because there are homeless white people and cis people are the victims of crimes and so on doesn't make them any less privileged, because they're not being discriminated against because they're white or cis. Whereas someone who is a PoC or trans* has to deal with both the problems that plague everyone and the consequences of discrimination.

You don't know my life, so I'd make a big deal out of that accusation, but I suppose I do live a relatively pampered life. However, I am queer, and there are problems that come with that. Unless you're hiding something or just haven't felt the need to say it, I'm assuming you're straight given your past behavior and arguments, so I think it's fair to say that in that area you don't understand what I go through, as much as you might pretend you do. I don't go around shouting it to the streets, but I still have to listen to the BS everyone around me spouts about gsrm. At most, they can be outright assholes, and at the very least many of them grossly misunderstand how things work when it comes to gsrm issues.

And if someone with privilege truly is broken by an insult from someone without it, then that is awful, I hope they are okay, and the person who insulted them was probably being rude. Their behavior isn't excused. However, like I said, this is a SOCIETAL SCALE PROBLEM and not something that can be solved with a little "why can't we all just get along" rhetoric. That's generalizing, and it's offensive to the people who are actually working to solve these problems instead of just sitting atop the scale of privilege (is that better?) and saying "okay, all you minorities, I know you're discriminated against, but, uh, we should all just be nice to each other in general. What? You're struggling? I don't know what you mean, I'm not struggling. And when I am, I can just fix it because society gives me the tools to! You're murdered daily for who you are? The law systematically treats you like dirt? One time I stubbed my toe! Also, white people get murdered every day, too! Some white people have had injustice committed against them!"

Again, please, stop the bigotry. Stop acting like you know what a person's life is like just because of their skin color or their gender or sexual orientation or sexual identity. Because this is the real world, and life doesn't work that way. There are people in all walks of life that have problems. And another slur ain't helping them.

I'm not presuming to know anyone's story, das_nut. I've never said that.

It's easy enough to say "F*** all acts of bigotry". We don't need to rate them. We don't need to dismiss some as being less offensive. We can be against them all. It's easy enough to do.

But by doing so, you are dismissing and trivializing the struggles that trans* people and PoC (and many more, but we've been using these two examples so far) face every day and acting like the struggles that cis and white people face (no struggles are unique to cis and white people except for being told they have privilege, and every struggle they face is unrelated to their cisgender or white status) are on level with struggles everyone else faces. Which they aren't, because specific transgressions against cis and white people based on their cisgender or white status don't exist. Society treats them as the normal ones. The default in every situation, while trans* people and PoC are continually mocked by a culture that singles them out and then gets uppity and defensive when it's called out on the fact.

I think you're definitely well-meaning, with your talk of treating every struggle like every other. You just don't see the fact that in doing so you are eliminating exposure of the struggles of people who are actually at risk for who they are.

 

[das_nut]

Can you understand how offensive it is to tell someone who is seriously struggling that they have "privilege" due to their skin color or gender? Someone who may literally be facing a life threatening struggle, and you're telling them, in your words, that they "can just fix it because society gives [them] the tools". To compare their problems to a stubbed toe?

Because it is pretty damn offensive. And that slur you're trying so desperately hard to diminish may be just enough to push them over the edge.

I'm really glad you have had such a privileged life. I wouldn't wish bad experiences on anyone. But I do with you'd show more empathy. Start hanging out with a different class of people. Know people who have had life **** all over them. And then maybe you won't be so quick to assume you know how well someone lives their life based on the color of their skin or their gender.

 

[kazyeeqen]

Saying that some people have a privilege that other people don't have doesn't diminish the individual struggle of any person.

 

[das_nut]

Saying that some people have a privilege that other people don't have doesn't diminish the individual struggle of any person.

I don't want to give a specific example, since it sounds very offensive. But there's a lot of groups (as a general rule) who face disadvantages. And there's a lot of groups (again, as a generalized rule) that face far greater disadvantages. But to compare the former to the later and say it's privilege, is pretty damn offensive. And really, for people on the edge, people who may be privileged in some ways, does it really help to point out that some people have it worse off? And what is worse? People die, even in the rich nation I live in, due to the disadvantages they have experienced in their lives. Perhaps they never experienced setbacks other people did. But they still are dead. Is it really not offensive to point out that they were, in ways, privileged? If not in any other way, they were privileged to live in a largely democratic, modern Western nation? Because it sure sounds offensive to me.

 

[kazyeeqen]

I don't want to give a specific example, since it sounds very offensive. But there's a lot of groups (as a general rule) who face disadvantages. And there's a lot of groups (again, as a generalized rule) that face far greater disadvantages. But to compare the former to the later and say it's privilege, is pretty damn offensive. And really, for people on the edge, people who may be privileged in some ways, does it really help to point out that some people have it worse off? And what is worse? People die, even in the rich nation I live in, due to the disadvantages they have experienced in their lives. Perhaps they never experienced setbacks other people did. But they still are dead. Is it really not offensive to point out that they were, in ways, privileged? If not in any other way, they were privileged to live in a largely democratic, modern Western nation? Because it sure sounds offensive to me.

It's really not offensive. It's just not. I know poor people, I know drug addiction, I know shortened life-spans due to poverty. I'm familiar with disadvantages faced due to circumstances to people not part of groups that have been systematically discriminated against. They are at different disadvantages, and no one here is probably going up to my homeless, chronically depressed, drug-addled brother and telling him how easy he has it. But here on the internet to recognize that while that ******* sucks for him but if he was black he'd probably have spent a lot more time in jail than he has is not offensive. For example.