Fourth Wave Feminism

[Freesia]

I know. But would you rather be a member of a "diverse" group, or a member of a "typical" group?

The term "diverse" seems more positive than the term "typical" to me. So its my personal believe that "neurotypical" does not paint allistic people in a more positive light than neurodiverse people.

YMMV.



Who are you calling "non-privileged"? If nothing else, in the West, you tend to have the privilege of drinking water that doesn't make you sick. You have a government that probably won't round you up and put you in a concentration camp. By the whole ideology of "privilege", it's hard to find someone who lacks privilege.

Which makes the term kinda useless, IMO.

You can start talking about a specific type of attribute giving privilege, but you fall into the trap of stereotyping individuals based on pigeonholing.

You dont get what I said. Neurodiverse actually refers to people who have mental illnesses or developmental disabilities.

It does not refer to the average person, it refers to a "diversity" of brain types, ie those outside the norm.

Both Neurotypical and Neurodiverse are terms invented by autistic people in order to describe themselves and other people without autism. And FYI, most autistic people didnt call people neurotypical all the time, it was shortened to NT.

 

[das_nut]

"Nuh uh! privilege doesn't exist! but if it does, you have it too! everyone has privilege, therefore privilege doesn't exist! Therefore you're a bigot because you stereotype! The real problem here is you!" It should be pointed out here that the irony here is that you have the privilege to make those without have to explain how privilege works, because you have the privilege to go around in life without having to examine the social structures that work in your favor, simply because they work in your favor therefore you don't have to examine them. It's a gross catch-22.

Not coming to the same conclusions as you does not necessarily mean I don't think about social structures. It just means I've come to different conclusions about the relative importance of different attributes.

 

[das_nut]

You dont get what I said. Neurodiverse actually refers to people who have mental illnesses or developmental disabilities.

I got what you said, but I think you're not getting what I'm saying.

An illness or a disability is something that is wrong, that should be corrected, if possible. There's plenty of neurodiverse individuals who don't consider themselves to be ill or disabled. Just because an individual may think differently than the norm doesn't mean they consider themselves in a state that needs to be fixed.

Neurodiversity is a huge umbrella term, and includes many different people. It would probably be considered offensive to tell them that since they are non-allistic, their is something wrong with them.

So "neurodiverse", as a term, isn't necessarily a negative thing.

 

[Freesia]

Are you really trying to speak for people with a disability when you dont have one? Who is saying there is anything wrong with anyone? Where are you even getting these ideas? What godammn heck planet do you live on?

 

[das_nut]

Are you really trying to speak for people with a disability when you dont have one?

I believe if you're reading my medical records, you are committing a HIPAA violation. You're also not reading very well. (Which brings me back to my position that "privilege" tends to result in people making incorrect assumptions.)

Who is saying there is anything wrong with anyone?

I took the words you said, "illness" and "disabled", to mean deviation from a desired state: aka, wrong.

Perhaps you care to expand your position?

 

[Mischief]

Your current CEO may be male but it is the 'man' (who happens to be female) of that particular relationship who works in advertising in the city?

Here we have CG's entire outlook on the sexes and on gender roles neatly summarized in one sentence. Well done, CG.

And jobs like healthcare, and teaching, etc etc are pink collared. I.e. as it shifts to a more female dominated profession, wages go down. I'm sure that's just the invisible hand of the free market, and not a reflection on things coded as "women's work" being undervalued.

Yup. Employment in "women's work" fields does find a higher concentration of women in management positions than in "men's work" fields, with a commensurate lower pay rate.

 

[Mischief]

I know. But would you rather be a member of a "diverse" group, or a member of a "typical" group?

A lot of people will say that they don't want to be "typical" or "normal", but in actual fact, almost everyone seeks to fit into a group. We are herd/pack animals, so that's to be expected. Most people who pride themselves on being nonconformist actually try really hard to fit into groups of specific types of nonconformists. I saw that in the hippie/flower child movement, and I see it with veg*ns, gangs, new agey people, etc.

I have met very, very few individuals who truly tread their own path with no concern for fitting in, even though the group with which they try to conform is not the majority group.

 

[ledboots]

I know. But would you rather be a member of a "diverse" group, or a member of a "typical" group?

The term "diverse" seems more positive than the term "typical" to me. So its my personal believe that "neurotypical" does not paint allistic people in a more positive light than neurodiverse people.

YMMV.



Who are you calling "non-privileged"? If nothing else, in the West, you tend to have the privilege of drinking water that doesn't make you sick. You have a government that probably won't round you up and put you in a concentration camp. By the whole ideology of "privilege", it's hard to find someone who lacks privilege.

Which makes the term kinda useless, IMO.

You can start talking about a specific type of attribute giving privilege, but you fall into the trap of stereotyping individuals based on pigeonholing.

There are DEGREES of privilege. Being born on earth alive is a privilege. Having an atmosphere with breathable air is a privilege. Having four workable limbs is a privilege. Having clean water is a privilege. Degrees of privilege.

Is your mentioning of a concentration camp close enough to Godwin's Law to end this thread? Maybe not. Just in case, nazis had privilege in WWII. There we go.

 

[das_nut]

Is your mentioning of a concentration camp close enough to Godwin's Law to end this thread? Maybe not. Just in case, nazis had privilege in WWII. There we go.

Not unless you're living in such a privileged coccoon that you only associate concentration camps with Nazis, instead of the concentration camps that still exist today.

 

[Clueless Git]

You can start talking about a specific type of attribute giving privilege ...

But, but, talking about specific attributes might reveal the weakness of the old "is it 'cos I'ze <anything other than a straight white male>?" card.

That one's quite a strong card to have in your hand, mind.

I'm not at all surprised at the reluctance of anyone 'privileged' enough to have been dealt it to put it down without a fight.

 

[Clueless Git]

There are DEGREES of privilege.

Massively so.

Hence the ridiculosity (new word!) of painting whole swathes of people with a very broad 'same degree of privilege' brush.

 

[Clueless Git]

And jobs like healthcare, and teaching, etc etc are pink collared. I.e. as it shifts to a more female dominated profession, wages go down. I'm sure that's just the invisible hand of the free market, and not a reflection on things coded as "women's work" being undervalued.

Heaven forbid that the free market would ever pay any less, for anything, than it possibly could.

Some of the reasons that the free market can pay less for jobs specs that can be filled largely by women would have you frothing at the mouth though.

In some instances quite rightly, but at the same time quite wrongly, so.

 

[ledboots]

Not unless you're living in such a privileged coccoon that you only associate concentration camps with Nazis, instead of the concentration camps that still exist today.

Oh for God's sake, my great -grandparents died in a Russian camp long before Hitler, and I'm not especially ignorant of the N Korea situation. Particularly the past few years, as a close friend of my daughter's is stationed in S Korea, so I keep a very worried eye over there.

ETA I just selfishly want this thread to wither away because it annoys me so much, yet I keep participating.

Hopefully last "contribution": privilege is like having different starting points when running a race. Everyone has the same finish line, but some people started the race much closer to the end than others.

:flounces out:

 

[das_nut]

Hopefully last "contribution": privilege is like having different starting points when running a race. Everyone has the same finish line, but some people started the race much closer to the end than others.

I repeatedly get the impression that many people in this thread started their life much closer to the finish line than other individuals.

And to stretch your analogy, the end isn't the same for most people. Some people always run, yet lose ground.

 

[Ann Chovie]

Here we have CG's entire outlook on the sexes and on gender roles neatly summarized in one sentence. Well done, CG

CG s summation of this particular couples dynamic is a very accurate one and one shared by both the males and females who work with the husband.

Sadly one which he himself admitted to during an earnest chat with a couple of us at the Xmas party. He expressed his regret that like many women his wife felt the need to be a ball breaker and surrender her softer side.

Prehaps if it is as CG s suggests and women need steel capped stilettos to break through .. they are then condemned to remain wearing them for fear of losing grip or ground?[/quote]

 

[Mischief]

I repeatedly get the impression that many people in this thread started their life much closer to the finish line than other individuals.

Well, yeah, since the finish line we all have in common is death, and many die at a much younger age than others.

 

[Mischief]

@ Ann Chovie. (I can't quote your post because you formatted it within a quote.)

I see that you share your SO's viewpoint to such an extent that you can't even see a potential issue with his statement.

 

[Envy]

Hopefully last "contribution": privilege is like having different starting points when running a race. Everyone has the same finish line, but some people started the race much closer to the end than others.

Guess I broke my leg.

 

[FortyTwo]

There are DEGREES of privilege. Being born on earth alive is a privilege. Having an atmosphere with breathable air is a privilege. Having four workable limbs is a privilege. Having clean water is a privilege. Degrees of privilege.

THANK YOU. It's like some people don't understand that you can't break down a population of people into smaller groups. America, in general, has greater privilege than, say, some parts of Africa, but if you look at America on its own then you can still find people who are more privileged than other people.

I was going to reply to either of the statements but it's hard for me to even find a way to respond to them, they're so separated from the way I think.

Guess I broke my leg.

But you're a bisexual in Sweden. Isn't that like being a bisexual in ancient Athens?

Anyways, everything I want to say about the issues that have been raised these past few pages has already been said by people who put it much more neatly than I could and who have more right to speak about it than I do, so... done for now.

 

[Ann Chovie]

@ Ann Chovie. (I can't quote your post because you formatted it within a quote.)

I see that you share your SO's viewpoint to such an extent that you can't even see a potential issue with his statement.

Error noted and post edited

What I see mischief is.. Any discussion around feminism fraught with misunderstandings and over reaction as men brave the minefield of political correctness to give their genuine opinions without causing anger or offence.