"God gave us animals to Consume! So,it’s OK?

[VeganRachel]

Yes, and it is crystal clear that the original Creation was essentially "vegan". And apparently so will what comes next. But after the Fall (correct me if I am wrong here, as an atheist I am not *that* familiar with the bible), nature was corrupted and so carnivory came into being along with sin and death. Humans changed, and so eating animals became more commonplace. Plus God demanded atonement sacrifice. Then after the Flood, God gave permission to eat animals, but really that was just making clear what had already become the norm. So sure, with Jesus's sacrifice the need for the spilling of animal blood as an atonement ended, but I don't think there is any biblical passage that shows some general direction not to eat animals. I think where we are is that God allows animal use (and the diet laws were changed with Jesus to allow all animals to be eaten), but the important point is "allows". Not "orders". And that's why I think Christians can be guided by both God's just and compassionate nature as well as reference to pre-Fall times to act in ways that we can regard as consistent with veganism. In neither case is anyone under a direct order not to use/eat animals. It's all a personal choice.

Thanks. But from what I have learned, the God of the old testament is not GOD. GOD is loving, kind, and merciful.
The Wrathful "god" in the OT is angry, vengeful, and believes in blood animal sacrifice--thats' satan and pagan.
No killing of any animal will ever take away our mistakes. I am not religious.

 

[mimulus]

HOW CAN VEGANS REACH CHRISTIANS WHO SAY, "God gave us the animals to eat, so its' ok"?

Hi all. I am not religious but I am spiritual. I do however believe in a kind loving non-judgemental God of light as well as Yeshua.
All religions emphasize kindness and compassion, yet they also okay and even promote eating animal flesh and blood. Some
churches host hunting events, in addition to get-together dinners where animals are served. Many religious humans use
the justification of eating animals saying, God gave them to us to feed us. So that makes it okay.
I believe that God blessed us with the animals for us to be caretakers, stewards, even parents, so we could have companions.
Not so we could kill, destroy, use, and eat them. We were also blessed with the Earth to live and thrive on, as caretakers and stewards,
yet we have really disrespected this gift.
What is the best approach to reach religious humans about the killing and consumption of animals by humans?. Namaste'.

 

[mimulus]

I'm not religious or spiritual myself, but am pretty familiar with religion. All religions suggest that eating animal flesh is less virtuous than plant foods. Early Christian's for example had many days out of the calendar year where they would abstain from meat and animal products. There are no forbidden plant foods in any religion, but many meats are considered unholy, like pork

When l speak to other fellow JWs they say Jehovah gave us free will. Sadly our free will is often used for things that cause suffering to others. We are at present allowed to eat animals if we so choose. Just as we are allowed to do other things against Jehovahs will. Such as war, murder, cheating stealing ect. Jehovahs witnesses would not do the afore mentioned but make an exception when diet is concerned. Because Jjehovah said we can eat animals they considering ok. As long as the animals are killed humanely. Some know this not be true but put their personal pleasure above any suffering animals experience. This despite Psalm 11: 5 where Jehovah says he hates anyone who loves violence. Must would say that scripture applies to hurting people. But is not a slaughterhouse full of violence?
There are scriptures that speak of Concern for animals Proverbs 12: 10 and did not Jesus say Blessed are the merciful? The eating of and abuses of animals is temporary Jehovah God has promised to restore this earth to a paradise. For all of us and his animal creation Hosea 12:8. That time is not yet but it is very near and it is this hope that keeps me going when l hear fellow witnesses drooling over roast dinners. I cannot change others only myself l look forward to that time. As for now l have to endure fellow christians making their choice.

 

[Brian W]

 

[christen_g]

I'm not religious or spiritual myself, but am pretty familiar with religion. All religions suggest that eating animal flesh is less virtuous than plant foods. Early Christian's for example had many days out of the calendar year where they would abstain from meat and animal products. There are no forbidden plant foods in any religion, but many meats are considered unholy, like pork

Altho i think youre generally right, i gotta be that guy..... Zen buddhists obstain from garlic. It supposedly stirs the passions too much. Ive heard similar things from christian monks. Niw all of you know this neat but nearly useless factoid.

 

[Brian W]

Here is a good site concerning Christianity and veganism.

Christianity and a vegan diet: How I reconcile veganism with the Judeo-Christian belief system

 

[veganfortheanimalss]

Here is a good site concerning Christianity and veganism.

Christianity and a vegan diet: How I reconcile veganism with the Judeo-Christian belief system

Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is still wrong. It's still better than doing wrong thing but it's still wrong. If the fear of punishment and reward of magical sky beings is making you do good things, then you are doing good but you are not a good person.

 

[Brian W]

Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is still wrong. It's still better than doing wrong thing but it's still wrong. If the fear of punishment and reward of magical sky beings is making you do good things, then you are doing good but you are not a good person.

That is very very arrogant to make fun of what I genuinely believe in. It might be your beliefs that are wrong. God knows how the universe functions so I will trust him rather than my own flawed intellect and flawed selfish nature. Even "magical sky beings" (which I don't believe in BTW) make more sense to me that physical stuff becoming alive purely by chance then somehow achieving consciousness for no reason whatsoever. Maybe it's you who believes in magic!

 

[veganfortheanimalss]

That is very very arrogant to make fun of what I genuinely believe in. It might be your beliefs that are wrong. God knows how the universe functions so I will trust him rather than my own flawed intellect and flawed selfish nature. Even "magical sky beings" (which I don't believe in BTW) make more sense to me that physical stuff becoming alive purely by chance then somehow achieving consciousness for no reason whatsoever. Maybe it's you who believes in magic!

Why did your God murder babies and other innocent animals in the flood. What wrong did they commit. Please answer.

 

[Brian W]

Why did your God murder babies and other innocent animals in the flood. What wrong did they commit. Please answer.

Murder is a legal term not a moral one. What right do you have to make laws concerning God. On what criteria external to yourself do you decide what is right and what is wrong if you don't believe in God? What objective criteria is there? Personally I don't believe that all the parables in Genesis are literal facts so it doesn't concern me but I will not cast my pearls before swine so I will ignore any further comments from you that are actually off topic anyway. You can take your disgusting attitude towards other people's beliefs up with God on judgement day. I fail to understand why many atheists are evangelical anyway. You could have just ignored the thread.

 

[veganfortheanimalss]

Murder is a legal term not a moral one. What right do you have to make laws concerning God. On what criteria external to yourself do you decide what is right and what is wrong if you don't believe in God? What objective criteria is there? Personally I don't believe that all the parables in Genesis are literal facts so it doesn't concern me but I will not cast my pearls before swine so I will ignore any further comments from you that are actually off topic anyway. You can take your disgusting attitude towards other people's beliefs up with God on judgement day. I fail to understand why many atheists are evangelical anyway. You could have just ignored the thread.

Yes. He should be tried and imprisoned.
What do you mean what right? So according to you drowning and murdering babies is good??
Is murdering babies good or bad. Let's clear the air on the basics first.

 

[Col]

I think you both think it is bad. I think it is bad!

For some this is enough to disprove the existence of God, which we are free to do. I think it is okay and fine for others to rationally question God in this way and follow what is true in their hearts. The psalms themselves lament terrible things.
I don’t think the disproof stands to reason as the concept of God, as the one creator of life who is all powerful, could take away and resurrect life.

 

[silva]

Murder is a legal term not a moral one. What right do you have to make laws concerning God. On what criteria external to yourself do you decide what is right and what is wrong if you don't believe in God? What objective criteria is there? Personally I don't believe that all the parables in Genesis are literal facts so it doesn't concern me but I will not cast my pearls before swine so I will ignore any further comments from you that are actually off topic anyway. You can take your disgusting attitude towards other people's beliefs up with God on judgement day. I fail to understand why many atheists are evangelical anyway. You could have just ignored the thread.

While I don't believe in God I have no problem accepting I don't know. There are almost infinite reasons to choose 'right' over 'wrong' without thinking about someone lording over you.
In my life I've found atheists, agnostics, to be more genuine in their goodness than most christians, however, I suppose that's maybe more to do with less comparison.

 

[silva]

Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is still wrong. It's still better than doing wrong thing but it's still wrong. If the fear of punishment and reward of magical sky beings is making you do good things, then you are doing good but you are not a good person.

Your arrogance is not helpful and not wanted

 

[veganfortheanimalss]

If a woman brings a new life into the world it doesn't mean she has the right to kill it as well. A loving God does not drown countless babies and other animals.

Veganism is beautiful because it stands in defiance of 4.5 billion years of evolution and natural selection. For the first time in earths history there is a big group which put other species needs first with no benefit to them or their species. I believe in the Vegan Ideal, which is defeating the cruelty of evolution/natural-selection. This means in practice, completely eliminating pain, suffering and/or death. Currently we are in a time where sentient beings are killed in the billions for their body parts, and this is the pressing issue at hand. But as time moves forward hopefully we have solved the animals killing issues and move our goal post towards the Ideal. I believe Veganism will constantly evolve towards the ideal.

But these other (religious) philosophies are nothing but a continuation of natural selection. At their very best, they tell the individual to put his wants after his species needs. And the way they do it is through fear of punishment from magical sky beings. This nonsense isn't working well now since most individuals now know there is no sky daddy. At the worst, these philosophies incite war between groups because the other group believes in a different sky daddy.

 

[veganfortheanimalss]

Your arrogance is not helpful and not wanted

If someone is saying-
Hey I like raping but I don't do it because of fear of punishment.
There is another individual who is saying-
I don't like raping because I don't want to inflict physical and psychological pain and suffering on the woman.

Both these individuals are doing the same thing, not raping, but are they the same? Is it arrogance to point out the difference?

 

[VeganRachel]

When l speak to other fellow JWs they say Jehovah gave us free will. Sadly our free will is often used for things that cause suffering to others. We are at present allowed to eat animals if we so choose. Just as we are allowed to do other things against Jehovahs will. Such as war, murder, cheating stealing ect. Jehovahs witnesses would not do the afore mentioned but make an exception when diet is concerned. Because Jjehovah said we can eat animals they considering ok. As long as the animals are killed humanely. Some know this not be true but put their personal pleasure above any suffering animals experience. This despite Psalm 11: 5 where Jehovah says he hates anyone who loves violence. Must would say that scripture applies to hurting people. But is not a slaughterhouse full of violence?
There are scriptures that speak of Concern for animals Proverbs 12: 10 and did not Jesus say Blessed are the merciful? The eating of and abuses of animals is temporary Jehovah God has promised to restore this earth to a paradise. For all of us and his animal creation Hosea 12:8. That time is not yet but it is very near and it is this hope that keeps me going when l hear fellow witnesses drooling over roast dinners. I cannot change others only myself l look forward to that time. As for now l have to endure fellow christians making their choice.

Hi, It is very uncomfortable to be around others so casually scarf down the death of animals.
And I do not think while humans are eating that is a good time to have a conversation.
However, we can provide some factual information and share, whether religious-oriented
or not. Perahps through making a foldable brochure with ralking points on it, and also
suggestions for documentaries to watch. We CAN get others to think and perhaps, change.
If we saw someone enslaving another person, or kicking a dog, we would certainly speak up.

 

[silva]

If someone is saying-
Hey I like raping but I don't do it because of fear of punishment.
There is another individual who is saying-
I don't like raping because I don't want to inflict physical and psychological pain and suffering on the woman.

Both these individuals are doing the same thing, not raping, but are they the same? Is it arrogance to point out the difference?

That line of thinking does not apply to all believers, in fact, it mostly applies to secular laws. You don't know what goes on in a persons mind. If they're doing right it would be arrogant to assume motive
I have no problem with people who refrain from eating meat regardless of their motives

 

[silva]

If a woman brings a new life into the world it doesn't mean she has the right to kill it as well. A loving God does not drown countless babies and other animals.

Veganism is beautiful because it stands in defiance of 4.5 billion years of evolution and natural selection. For the first time in earths history there is a big group which put other species needs first with no benefit to them or their species. I believe in the Vegan Ideal, which is defeating the cruelty of evolution/natural-selection. This means in practice, completely eliminating pain, suffering and/or death. Currently we are in a time where sentient beings are killed in the billions for their body parts, and this is the pressing issue at hand. But as time moves forward hopefully we have solved the animals killing issues and move our goal post towards the Ideal. I believe Veganism will constantly evolve towards the ideal.

But these other (religious) philosophies are nothing but a continuation of natural selection. At their very best, they tell the individual to put his wants after his species needs. And the way they do it is through fear of punishment from magical sky beings. This nonsense isn't working well now since most individuals now know there is no sky daddy. At the worst, these philosophies incite war between groups because the other group believes in a different sky daddy.

What? I bet there are more who follow plant based diets for health, environment, sustainability, and practicality than those who go vegan solely for animal rights. I bet you they're more likely to remain plant based
And please, vegans do not, and will not, eliminate pain suffering and/or death
Religious philosophies are not one dimensional and it's ignorant to assume, particularly since many are vegan themselves. Do vegans really need to be further divided?

 

[veganfortheanimalss]

That line of thinking does not apply to all believers, in fact, it mostly applies to secular laws. You don't know what goes on in a persons mind. If they're doing right it would be arrogant to assume motive
I have no problem with people who refrain from eating meat regardless of their motives

I have no problem as well. As long as they aren't killing them. But the person I was debating is not vegan? He says lifestyle is other.