US Hearing for accused Colo. shooter to begin Monday

[Envy]

I think you are getting "in order to be a murderer, you probably need to be devoid of impulse control and empathy" mixed up with "all people who lack impulse control and empathy are probably murderers". The first does not imply the second.

is either one of those true to begin with?

 

[Envy]

I would say that in order to be a murderer, lack of empathy would be a prime requirement. I think lack of impulse control is also a strong factor. Amongst many others, no doubt.

As to the second, "all people who lack impulse control and empathy are probably murderers", absolutely not true.

How many murders are committed in the heat of the moment, how many are planned and how many murderers are intoxicated in any way or manner?

only a thought.

 

[mlp]

If someone tries to buy guns, is turned down, kills his mother in her sleep, steals all her guns and ammo, and dons a flak jacket, shoots his way into the elementary school, killing the people in the office so they can't call for help.... I don't think he would qualify for the insanity defense. The crime was premeditated, and he obviously knew what he was doing was illegal. Imo.

I think das_nut was talking about the Colorado shooter, not the Newtown one.

 

[Moll Flanders]

Yes, lack of empathy, lack of impulse control, losing one's temper, and bam. You don't have to be crazy. I think the vast majority of people wish such folk were crazy mostly to distance themselves from people who act on their impulses to such a disastrous degree. Makes them feel like they aren't capable of acting in exactly the same way if the circumstances were favorable.

I haven't read enough about this case to suspect if the killer was suffering from a mental illness but I agree that humans don't have to be mentally ill to commit murders like this. When the psychologists were on the news talking about the Newtown killings they were saying that spree killers are not crazed, they usually try to kill as many people as possible and cause as much devastation before killing themselves.

 

[das_nut]

you could just be in a really really bad mood.

No matter how bad of a mood I've been in, my train of thought has never jumped to "I should shoot random people in a movie theater."

 

[Wolfie]

They are saying he took pictures of the theater days in advance. Seems pretty premeditated. I'd like to see him fry.

 

[beancounter]

They are saying he took pictures of the theater days in advance. Seems pretty premeditated. I'd like to see him fry.

But remember to only use olive oil.

 

[das_nut]

They are saying he took pictures of the theater days in advance. Seems pretty premeditated.

Premeditated doesn't exclude crazy.

I'm scared by the amount of people in this thread who seem to think its sane to shoot up a theater of random strangers.

 

[mlp]

Premeditated doesn't exclude crazy.

Agreed.

Years ago, I prosecuted some involuntary commitments. The look in the Colorado shooter's eyes is the same as that of several of the very sickest people I met then. I would think that it would take very considerable acting talent to mimic that.

ETA: On another note, I think empathy is more complicated than being a question of either you have it or you don't. Most people tend to have empathy for some people/living beings and not others, in some circumstances and not others, etc.

 

[Moll Flanders]

To make it clear, I wasn't saying that I thought the Colorado killer was sane when he carried out those acts, in fact from what I have read I think that he deviated from the description of a typical spree killer. I just wanted to say that I think too much emphasis is put on violent criminals being mentally ill when they carry out horrible crimes.

 

[das_nut]

I just wanted to say that I think too much emphasis is put on violent criminals being mentally ill when they carry out horrible crimes.

I'm not sure what your definition of "violent criminal" is. But for me, the definition would include culpability, and the ability to reason. It understates the effect of mental illness, and that's a problem in this society. We tend to consider the mentally ill as not having the will power to overcome their illness.

I think we want to be able to blame. We want to feel control. The idea that someone might just be insane and prone to violence is a far less comforting thought.

 

[Eleven]

To make it clear, I wasn't saying that I thought the Colorado killer was sane when he carried out those acts, in fact from what I have read I think that he deviated from the description of a typical spree killer. I just wanted to say that I think too much emphasis is put on violent criminals being mentally ill when they carry out horrible crimes.

I agree. The vast majority - almost all - of shootings and other violent crimes occur at the hands of people not mentally ill. The blaming of gun violence on the mentally ill is another means of diverting the conversation away from the point that putting guns in the hands of ordinary Americans greatly increases violence and death.

The sleaze of the pro gun arguments is stunning.

 

[das_nut]

The sleaze of the pro gun arguments is stunning.

This is about the Colorado shooter. You know, the (very probably) mentally ill guy who is facing the possibility of execution.

Yes, I agree, he's a danger to others. He should be kept away from other people to protect everyone. Yes, he killed many people, and that's very, very tragic. But he could possibly die due to a public that's very willing to dismiss the idea of mental illness. When you're dismissing the idea of mental illness just because you have a personal axe to grind over gun violence, that, IMO, is pretty sleazy.

 

[mlp]

When you're dismissing the idea of mental illness just because you have a personal axe to grind over gun violence, that, IMO, is pretty sleazy.

Who in this thread has done that?

Who generally has done that?

 

[das_nut]

Who in this thread has done that?

Who generally has done that?

Maybe "minimizing" would have been a better term?

When the discussion moves away from the Colorado shooting to a general discussion of gun violence, it tends to minimize the acknowledgement of the role mental illness played. It is further minimized when we ignore that the vast majority of gun violence is most likely due to mental illness - most of the lethal violence done with guns is self-inflicted, e. i. suicide.

Back to the discussion, I do think that the Colorado shooter has a pretty small chance of being found not guilty due to mental illness. The Tucson shooter (Jared Loughner) had his lawyers take a plea deal instead of trying to risk an insanity defense, and that guy very obviously was crazy.

 

[mlp]

Maybe "minimizing" would have been a better term?

When the discussion moves away from the Colorado shooting to a general discussion of gun violence, it tends to minimize the acknowledgement of the role mental illness played. It is further minimized when we ignore that the vast majority of gun violence is most likely due to mental illness - most of the lethal violence done with guns is self-inflicted, e. i. suicide.

55% of U.S. gun deaths are suicides, 40% are homicides. Not all people who kill themselves suffer from clinical depression or another form of mental illness.

Therefore "the vast majority of gun violence" is NOT due to mental illness.

 

[das_nut]

55% of U.S. gun deaths are suicides, 40% are homicides. Not all people who kill themselves suffer from clinical depression or another form of mental illness.

Therefore "the vast majority of gun violence" is NOT due to mental illness.

Why do you assume that some people who kill others are not mentally ill?

 

[Eleven]

Why do you assume that some people who kill others are not mentally ill?

You can't be serious. Really. You've moved from NRA ridiculous to GOA stupid.

 

[Moll Flanders]

Maybe "minimizing" would have been a better term?

When the discussion moves away from the Colorado shooting to a general discussion of gun violence, it tends to minimize the acknowledgement of the role mental illness played. It is further minimized when we ignore that the vast majority of gun violence is most likely due to mental illness - most of the lethal violence done with guns is self-inflicted, e. i. suicide.

Back to the discussion, I do think that the Colorado shooter has a pretty small chance of being found not guilty due to mental illness. The Tucson shooter (Jared Loughner) had his lawyers take a plea deal instead of trying to risk an insanity defense, and that guy very obviously was crazy.

Obviously some people who kill others are suffering from a mental illness but I don't think it's helpful to keep repeating that most killers who use guns have a mental illness as it's not accurate and it's insulting to people with mental illnesses. People make bad, selfish decisions and harm and kill other people for all types of reasons. As I live in the UK and we don't have a massive gun problem I've only known two people who have shot and killed another person, one was my ex-b/f's brother and one was a man a couple of years ago I met who killed his stepfather. One was a gang-related killing and the other killed his stepfather as he had been physically abusing him and neither had anything to do with a mental illness.

With the shooter in Colorado I don't agree with the death penalty anyway so I think it's ethically wrong that he could be killed even if he was mentally well at the time. I think being imprisoned for life should be the worst punishment meted out, or obviously if he is found to be ill to be monitored and treated in a secure facility.

 

[das_nut]

Obviously some people who kill others are suffering from a mental illness but I don't think it's helpful to keep repeating that most killers who use guns have a mental illness as it's not accurate

What's the percentage of killlers who use guns and are mentally ill?

Presumably, the vast amount of suicides is due to mental illness. That's the majority of US gun deaths right there. I wouldn't be surprised if a decent chunk of the remaining killers are also mentally ill.