US Hearing for accused Colo. shooter to begin Monday

[Wolfie]

So, congratulations, insanity is the new normal.

I'm normal now!

 

[das_nut]

Das_nut, you apparently assume that bad acts can only be committed by mentally ill people. By your definition, pretty much everyone is insane, because pretty much everyone is capable of committing a bad act.

Not sure what you're arguing.

All I know is that most people don't commit acts of murder, much less acts of random mass murder. Even for acts of murder, humanity has become far more peaceful over the centuries.

 

[ledboots]

Nearly half of Americans have guns in their homes. The *vast* majority don't commit gun crimes.

 

[kibbleforlola]

Nearly half of Americans have guns in their homes. The *vast* majority don't commit gun crimes.

What I get from this is, walking down the street or visiting my friend's house or otherwise being in public, there is a 50% possibility that I'm near someone who has the power to shoot me.

Just wonderful.

 

[das_nut]

What I get from this is, walking down the street or visiting my friend's house or otherwise being in public, there is a 50% possibility that I'm near someone who has the power to shoot me.

Just wonderful.

Well, look on the bright side - it's better than the near-100% possibility that you live near someone who has the power to stab you or strangle you.

And better than the over-90% of households with cars. Which, around here, seems to be treated fairly leniently when it comes to pedestrian deaths. Heck, in the last case I recall, a fatal hit-and-run resulted in a 2 1/4 year prison sentence.

 

[Envy]

What I get from this is, walking down the street or visiting my friend's house or otherwise being in public, there is a 50% possibility that I'm near someone who has the power to shoot me.

Just wonderful.

The only viable option is obviously to retract from society.

 

[kibbleforlola]

Well, look on the bright side - it's better than the near-100% possibility that you live near someone who has the power to stab you or strangle you.

And better than the over-90% of households with cars. Which, around here, seems to be treated fairly leniently when it comes to pedestrian deaths. Heck, in the last case I recall, a fatal hit-and-run resulted in a 2 1/4 year prison sentence.

But they have to get close enough to you to stab you or strangle you. A swift kick to the balls very well may save you. Not so with a gun. And, oddly enough, I agree about cars - I think that we need both better driver education, harder tests, and huge reforms to public transportation - but that's a different discussion.

Also, I had a thought. Those 50% with guns may not be "violent" in the sense that they shoot up humans, but how many are using their guns to shoot up animals - which is perfectly legal. Just because it isn't violence against humans doesn't make them non-violent, and doesn't make it ok.

 

[das_nut]

But they have to get close enough to you to stab you or strangle you. A swift kick to the balls very well may save you. Not so with a gun. And, oddly enough, I agree about cars - I think that we need both better driver education, harder tests, and huge reforms to public transportation - but that's a different discussion.

Agreed with cars.

But getting close enough to stab someone is pretty easy. Don't you ride the bus?

Those 50% with guns may not be "violent" in the sense that they shoot up humans, but how many are using their guns to shoot up animals - which is perfectly legal. Just because it isn't violence against humans doesn't make them non-violent, and doesn't make it ok.

No, its not okay. Pales in comparison to CAFOs though.

 

[kibbleforlola]

But getting close enough to stab someone is pretty easy. Don't you ride the bus?

Kinda - I drive to a off campus parking lot and take a bus the last little bit in. But all the violence on my campus has either been self-inflicted or weirdos (who aren't even students) coming on campus at night - or just off campus, and perpetuating violence - all with guns, I've not heard of one knife incidence once, but there have been a few shootings near the bars late at night right off campus.

 

[mlp]

Not sure what you're arguing.

All I know is that most people don't commit acts of murder, much less acts of random mass murder. Even for acts of murder, humanity has become far more peaceful over the centuries.

It seems to me that you're pretty much taking the position that anyone who commits a violent act is ipso facto mentally ill.

But getting close enough to stab someone is pretty easy. Don't you ride the bus?

And again you make the point for me that it's guns that make murder easy, because with a gun, you're not only physically but emotionally at a point removed from your victims. Otherwise, instead of these mass shootings, the perps would just be making their way through a bus or subway car with a knife.

 

[das_nut]

Kinda - I drive to a off campus parking lot and take a bus the last little bit in. But all the violence on my campus has either been self-inflicted or weirdos (who aren't even students) coming on campus at night - or just off campus, and perpetuating violence - all with guns, I've not heard of one knife incidence once, but there have been a few shootings near the bars late at night right off campus.

Weird. There were several assaults without firearms where I used to live, to the point where some routes weren't safe at night. One ended up being fatal when a would-be robber tried to assault someone with a rock, and the would-be victim had a knife. (I place no blame on the would-be victim for the death - the robber came after the victim again after already receiving one knife wound.)

It seems to me that you're pretty much taking the position that anyone who commits a violent act is ipso facto mentally ill.

Not everyone. I could see some circumstances where an act of violence, especially for self-defense, is justified.

But I do believe that we as a society are far too willing to blame psychopathic behavior on some sort of nefarious "evil" instead of having a serious conversation about what changes in thinking and brain chemistry would drive someone to commit acts of violence against another person.

We can't fix "evil". Eve already ate the apple, after all. But we can move away from such superstitions of a bearded guy in the clouds and a horned man with a pointy tail below us, and step into a more enlightened mindset. Because while "evil" as a cause isn't preventable, socio-economic, cultural, and mental illness are preventable, treatable, or at least partially neutralized.

 

[Eleven]

Some people, in some circumstances, are just violent. They're not mentally ill and their acts are almost never justified. It's how humans behave and it's why laws need to be passed in order to lessen the chance of people being harmed.

 

[mlp]

Not everyone. I could see some circumstances where an act of violence, especially for self-defense, is justified.

But I do believe that we as a society are far too willing to blame psychopathic behavior on some sort of nefarious "evil" instead of having a serious conversation about what changes in thinking and brain chemistry would drive someone to commit acts of violence against another person.

We can't fix "evil". Eve already ate the apple, after all. But we can move away from such superstitions of a bearded guy in the clouds and a horned man with a pointy tail below us, and step into a more enlightened mindset. Because while "evil" as a cause isn't preventable, socio-economic, cultural, and mental illness are preventable, treatable, or at least partially neutralized.

Yeah, I think that you and I have fundamentally different viewpoints with respect to human nature. I don't see selfishness, greediness, the putting of one's own self interest above that of others, etc., as aberrant behaviors limited to those who come from poor socio-economic and/or familial backgrounds and/or those with some sort of chemical imbalance in their brains. In fact, those are qualities that have heightened the chances that those who have those qualities will have the opportunity to pass their genes on to subsequent generations. So as far as I see it, those are not only *normal* qualities, they carry with them an evolutionary advantage. The people who combine those qualities with intelligence, fairly good impulse control and a degree of charm/social ease rise to the top; those that don't, end up in prison, and the rest lead unremarkable lives in the middle, together with those who manifest the truly aberrant quality of selflessness.

 

[beancounter]

The people who combine those qualities with intelligence, fairly good impulse control and a degree of charm/social ease rise to the top; those that don't, end up in prison, and the rest lead unremarkable lives in the middle, together with those who manifest the truly aberrant quality of selflessness.

That's very depressing.

 

[mlp]

That's very depressing.

Which part? Is the thought of an unremarkable life depressing, or the thought that we all live surrounded by people capable of doing *evil*?

 

[beancounter]

Which part? Is the thought of an unremarkable life depressing, or the thought that we all live surrounded by people capable of doing *evil*?

The thought of an unremarkable life.

 

[mlp]

The thought of an unremarkable life.

I can understand that - I think that our sense of self is such that we expect the world to revolve around us, from infancy, and that need to consider ourselves special is only somewhat modified throughout our lives.

But, as one of over 7 billion humans, I think I have come to terms with the fact that my life is remarkable only to myself and possibly some others who happen to care for me.

 

[beancounter]

my life is remarkable only to myself and possibly some others who happen to care for me.

That's good enough for me.

 

[das_nut]

Some people, in some circumstances, are just violent. They're not mentally ill and their acts are almost never justified. It's how humans behave and it's why laws need to be passed in order to lessen the chance of people being harmed.

Eve and the apple, huh?

So as far as I see it, those are not only *normal* qualities, they carry with them an evolutionary advantage.

If violence carries an evolutionary advantage, why have murder rates plummeted over the centuries? The reverse should be true, as human evolution (both genetic and cultural) select for more violent behavior.

 

[mlp]

If violence carries an evolutionary advantage, why have murder rates plummeted over the centuries? The reverse should be true, as human evolution (both genetic and cultural) select for more violent behavior.

I said that self centeredness carries an evolutionary advantage. There was a time when that self centeredness, manifested as violence, carried an evolutionary advantage. As populations expanded and laws were enacted to protect population as a whole, rather than protecting the most physically powerful, self centeredness still continued/continues to carry an advantage, but now generally manifested more successfully in other ways. Face it, the altruistic and selfless generally don't rise to the top.