US Hearing for accused Colo. shooter to begin Monday

[mlp]

Why do you assume that some people who kill others are not mentally ill?

I'm not assuming that - you're the one who is assuming/putting words in my mouth. It really does become tedious, trying to have a reasonable discussion when you are either incapable of reading accurately or are being intellectually dishonest in an attempt to foster dispute.

As I've said before, studies support that people who are mentally ill are no more likely to kill others than people in the general population.

 

[mlp]

What's the percentage of killlers who use guns and are mentally ill?

About the same as the percentage of mentally ill people in the population as a whole.

Presumably, the vast amount of suicides is due to mental illness.

Only if you automatically define someone who commits suicide as being mentally ill, the way some people assume that anyone who does something violent is mentally ill. I think you have a very poor understanding of depression as a mental illness - you're conflating despair at a life circumstance, adolescent emotional bursts, etc., with mental illness.

I wouldn't be surprised if a decent chunk of the remaining killers are also mentally ill.

Again, I think you have little understanding of mental illness. But let's assume that you're right - the vast majority of the population is mentally ill and therefore prone to violence - all the more reason to keep guns out of their hands.

 

[ledboots]

Nvm the video link is bad

 

[das_nut]

About the same as the percentage of mentally ill people in the population as a whole.

Why do you assume that? A quick google search suggests otherwise.

Obviously, some of the factors which makes criminal behavior more likely (lack of a steady job, poverty, etc) can very easily result from mental illness. Even drug addiction (which also is associated with crime) can be the result of self-medication.

Only if you automatically define someone who commits suicide as being mentally ill

I think that suicides are more likely than not to be associated with mental illness. Sure, there are exceptions - those who are in pain and facing a terminal illness may be making a logical and rational decision to end their life (of course this is a sad commentary on the state of pain management and the expense of end-of-life medical care in our society as well). But a quick google search turns up the statistic that 87% of suicides have an associated mental illness. While you can quibble on the actual figure, it seems very likely that the vast majority of suicides have mental illness associated with them. It may be direct (suicide stemming from depression) or indirect (mental illness affecting the ability to maintain a strong financial foundation and the ability to sustain a strong network of friends and family).

the way some people assume that anyone who does something violent is mentally ill.

Well, in the Colorado shooting case, a man decided to shoot up a theater full of random people. I'm having a hard time figuring out a sane explanation for his actions.

 

[mlp]

It's estimated that about 20% of the population of the U.S. suffers from some form of mental illness in any given year. About 5% of the population has suffered from mental illness so severe that it interfered with day-to-day work, school and/or family life.

It's likewise estimated that between 5-10% of violent crime is committed by persons with mental illness. Presumably, at least some of those crimes are committed by repeat offenders. See the correlation in the numbers?

With respect to suicide, I think there's a lot of after the fact assumption - X killed himself; so obviously, X suffered from depression, even though he was never diagnosed, even though no one ever noticed anything that would qualify as other than situational depression. Based on my own life experiences, quite a few people kill themselves as a result of some trauma/setback - a breakup, a job loss, bullying, etc.

As for sane explanation - shooting up a place filled with random people can be a fame seeking device. It can be a giant "**** you" aimed at a society the shooter feels has rejected him.

 

[das_nut]

As for sane explanation - shooting up a place filled with random people can be a fame seeking device.

Are you trying to claim that it is the mark of a mind that's not mentally ill to consider the deaths of innocent random people justified if it leads to personal fame?

 

[ledboots]

It seems to me that the media has not trumpeted information about the killers as much since the Arizona shootings. They don't seem to obsess over the individuals as much, which I think is a positive development. Leaves less motive for would-be mass murderers.

 

[Moll Flanders]

It's estimated that about 20% of the population of the U.S. suffers from some form of mental illness in any given year. About 5% of the population has suffered from mental illness so severe that it interfered with day-to-day work, school and/or family life.
It's likewise estimated that between 5-10% of violent crime is committed by persons with mental illness. Presumably, at least some of those crimes are committed by repeat offenders. See the correlation in the numbers?
With respect to suicide, I think there's a lot of after the fact assumption - X killed himself; so obviously, X suffered from depression, even though he was never diagnosed, even though no one ever noticed anything that would qualify as other than situational depression. Based on my own life experiences, quite a few people kill themselves as a result of some trauma/setback - a breakup, a job loss, bullying, etc.
As for sane explanation - shooting up a place filled with random people can be a fame seeking device. It can be a giant "**** you" aimed at a society the shooter feels has rejected him.

This all makes sense to me. I think some people can carry a great deal of anger towards a society they feel has wronged them and can get to a point where they lash out.

There doesn't seem much point carrying on with this argument as I have known enough people who were victims of violent crimes to know that mental illness cannot be the only cause. Aside from a couple of gun crimes I mentioned I have known quite a few people who have been victims of other violent attacks and I don't believe for one second that the perpetrators were mentally ill to the point where they could be considered unaccountable for their actions.

 

[mlp]

Are you trying to claim that it is the mark of a mind that's not mentally ill to consider the deaths of innocent random people justified if it leads to personal fame?

Is it more sane to kill people for power, for money, for any of the reasons that people, sometimes millions of them as part of the same *spree*, have been butchered over the years?

This all makes sense to me. I think some people can carry a great deal of anger towards a society they feel has wronged them and can get to a point where they lash out.

There doesn't seem much point carrying on with this argument as I have known enough people who were victims of violent crimes to know that mental illness cannot be the only cause. Aside from a couple of gun crimes I mentioned I have known quite a few people who have been victims of other violent attacks and I don't believe for one second that the perpetrators were mentally ill to the point where they could be considered unaccountable for their actions.

Agreed.

 

[das_nut]

Is it more sane to kill people for power, for money, for any of the reasons that people, sometimes millions of them as part of the same *spree*, have been butchered over the years?

Are we arguing that genocide is now sane?

 

[kibbleforlola]

I think we want to be able to blame. We want to feel control. The idea that someone might just be insane and prone to violence is a far less comforting thought.

I'm sorry dasnut, but you have this exactly backwards. Think about all the major killings that made the news recently. How many of them were perpetrated by young white men, and how quick were the reporters, and everyone else, to jump on the crazy bandwagon? These men are mentally ill, they were severely depressed, and on and on it goes. Why are we so eager to assume that these men were ill? We want to seperate ourselves from these people. Well, I'm not crazy, we say, and neither are my friends. No way this would happen here. We don't want to recognize that a rational mind could do such acts, and we want to excuse ourselves from being in anyway responsible. While this guy is 100% accountable for his actions, we also need to realize that we live in a society that glamorizes violence and practically create shrines to the cult of gun ownership. We have some pretty fucked up cultural norms that we need to deal with, but no that guy was crazy - nothing we could have done about it.

About cultural norms; all these crimes were performed by white men. I'm not saying that minority men never commit violent crimes, of course they do. But when was the last time that made more than a blip on the local news, if that at all? We still have that gross, lingering stereotype about minority men being inherently violent. Of course they are going to shoot each other, that's what they do. As long it's each other, we don't seem to care. Women also commit violent crimes, and they also get labeled as crazy. But it isn't the same kind of crazy, a crazy we can distance ourselves from. It's the kind of crazy all women are, or are capable of, taken to an extreme. Because the ladies are crazy, amirite? These young men are labeled as crazy because if they are capible of rational violence, it means that other nice, white, "good" men are also capable of violence, and that just can't be.

I think we are doing a disservice to everybody by framing violence in this way. Honestly, I don't care if he was crazy or not; what matters is that he is guilty.

 

[das_nut]

Why are we so eager to assume that these men were ill? We want to seperate ourselves from these people. Well, I'm not crazy, we say, and neither are my friends. No way this would happen here.

What sort of life are you living that you aren't around or don't interact with people that you don't know?

 

[kibbleforlola]

Point: missed.

But I'm really not surprised you are interested in defending such a gross view. And I'm really not interested in arguing with you. I just felt like it needed to be pointed out that you had it wrong.

ETA: The point was, we distance ourselves. My friends are sane, those acts are performed by those people, over there. And when it does happen, we treat it as if it were an act of nature. Terrible, but inevitable and unavoidable.

 

[beancounter]

Are we arguing that genocide is now sane?

No individuals kill other individuals for monetary gain. It has nothing to do with genocide or insanity.

 

[Eleven]

Yep, the people perpetrating almost all gun violence whether it's violence against humans or non humans are your neighbors and mine, ordinary "sane Americans" all.

 

[das_nut]

If you think saying "point: missed" is an effective rebuttal, perhaps your conclusions aren't as logical.

Especially if you don't care about the actual mental state of a person, but instead assume he's guilty.

It's black and white thinking. That's not how the world necessarily works. A person can commit an act without being guilty, due to various factors.

No individuals kill other individuals for monetary gain. It has nothing to do with genocide or insanity.

So you think it's prefectly sane to be willing to snuff out a human life, cause grief and suffering to those around them, all for a few bucks?

If that is what most people believed, we'd have a lot more murders on our hands.

 

[beancounter]

So you think it's perfectly sane to be willing to snuff out a human life, cause grief and suffering to those around them, all for a few bucks?

If that is what most people believed, we'd have a lot more murders on our hands.

Belief and sanity are two different things.

 

[Eleven]

Well, here's a guy that MUST be mentally ill:

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/12/21/wnd-columnist-alleges-sandy-hook-shooting-was-s/191946

http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/professor-obama-staged-sandy-hook-massacre/?cat_orig=education

Evidently, the shootings at Sandy Hook were staged by the federal government, no one was shot and killed, and the purpose was to further a gun reform agenda.

 

[mlp]

Das_nut, you apparently assume that bad acts can only be committed by mentally ill people. By your definition, pretty much everyone is insane, because pretty much everyone is capable of committing a bad act.

So, congratulations, insanity is the new normal.

 

[Wolfie]

Well, here's a guy that MUST be mentally ill:

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/12/21/wnd-columnist-alleges-sandy-hook-shooting-was-s/191946

http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/professor-obama-staged-sandy-hook-massacre/?cat_orig=education

Evidently, the shootings at Sandy Hook were staged by the federal government, no one was shot and killed, and the purpose was to further a gun reform agenda.

People frighten me.