How should activists deal with criticism?

[Lou]

Wow! you are either a philosopher or a lawyer. Or both.

I'm vegan.
BTW, you will see that I use the word "avoid" a lot. That is because I accept that I am not perfect.

I avoid dairy milk because dairy farms are cruel and unnecessary.
I avoid almond milk because of the harm that almond farmers cause to bees. And because IMHO there are better alternatives. The commercial bees that are used to pollinate almonds suffer a lot, and there are literally billions of them.
I do not avoid other crops that require commercial bee pollination. Maybe that makes me hypocritical. But I have to eat Something.

 

[Graeme M]

I do not avoid other crops that require commercial bee pollination. Maybe that makes me hypocritical. But I have to eat Something.

I think that's fair enough. Of course, non-vegans don't really care about pests, they just use that as a way to ridicule veganism. But I think activists need to be able to defuse those criticisms. Your tack seems to be sensible - when you can make a choice about your foods you err on the side of caution. I just don't know how to encapsulate that into a couple of sentences. An activist shouldn't have to know everything about every food crop, whereas critics will dig around until they find something to latch onto and then say aha, gotcha you hypocritical do-gooder.

I am just wondering if there is a simple way to cope with that line of questioning.

 

[Lou]

There is such a thing as predator saturation (I think that's the term): predators can only eat so many prey animals within a certain time.

its actually called predator satiation. and you sort of have it twisted. Its a survival technique employed by some prey animals. Best example is how sea turtles all hatch on the same night.

Not sure how this little observation fits in with the discussion but from the predators point of view its much better to lose a little cover every day than a whole bunch in one day. but in small lots - like a field, and if you're considering birds of prey who can commute it doesn't really allow many prey animals to survive a loss of cover. No matter how its done. Small mammals have lots of babies because individually their chance of survival is very low.

....certainly not when you include the field animals killed from raising corn, hay, etc for those livestock....

I think I was trying to make that point earlier.

 

[VeganRachel]

Interesting. I agree Morgan seems to have no interest in changing his food choices. He simply wants to be in charge,
dominate the conversation, interrupt, and thereby justify his point of view. He has a dominant personality, quite
typical of meat-eating humans, such as carnivores, who are fearful of changing and letting go of their "drug" of
choice--flesh and blood, dairy, etcetera. Morgan has the right to make his choice, but does not want to see the
forest through the trees about it. He simply does not give a sh*t what impact it has on the animals, the environment,
and himself. He is angry at others who make a different choice and actually care.
Almonds and avocado do use a lot of water to grow, however vegans do not live on those two foods. The last time I
checked, about 96% of humans in the world eat plant foods as well as animal foods, which means that more omnivores
consume more almonds and avocado's than any vegans or vegetarians. The biggest purchasers of veggie burgers and
other processed plant foods, are omnivores, not vegans.
Comparing some mice and other small animals killed by crops, with 70 Billion animals killed by animal agriculture
annually is a desperate ridiculous argument and excuse for eating flesh and blood. We all have to eat something,
and plants and crops do the least harm to humans, the animals, and the environment. Small animals are killed every
day in multiple ways by cars, delivery trucks, construction, etcetera. I find it ironic that humans who think it is okay to
deliberately consume flesh and blood of animals, suddenly become compassionate for mice and insect life. Actually,
they care not for those either, they simply want to find some way to say that vegans, kill, also. But it is easier and safer
to point the finger at vegans than to acknowledge participation in animal cruelty.
Put ego Morgan in a commercial slaughterhouse for a days shift murdering animals. His arrogance will disappear as
he witnesses the horror against the animals, and actually does the killing and slitting their throats. He may not admit it,
but he WILL see things differently than he does with human vegans. namaste'.

 

[Tom L.]

its actually called predator satiation. and you sort of have it twisted. Its a survival technique employed by some prey animals. Best example is how sea turtles all hatch on the same night.

That's what I get for not googling the correct term first (and not taking the time to choose my words more carefully). But yes- that's what I was trying to say: prey animals often reproduce at the same time and predators can't eat them all.

 

[VeganRachel]

I think that's fair enough. Of course, non-vegans don't really care about pests, they just use that as a way to ridicule veganism. But I think activists need to be able to defuse those criticisms. Your tack seems to be sensible - when you can make a choice about your foods you err on the side of caution. I just don't know how to encapsulate that into a couple of sentences. An activist shouldn't have to know everything about every food crop, whereas critics will dig around until they find something to latch onto and then say aha, gotcha you hypocritical do-gooder.

I am just wondering if there is a simple way to cope with that line of questioning.

I am not superior to other humans, I simply choose the most ethical and moral lifestyle I can saving animals lives.
I can no longer kill any animal to eat it, whether it is a cat, dog, horse, chicken, pig, or cow, etcetera.
Human animals have an ego and prefer to put others on the defensive than take responsibility for their actions.
Everyone on this planet, regardless of what they eat, will harm animals and insects. The difference is, that some
eat their victims, smile, and do not care, and some do the least harm and refuse to be unkind and eat their victims.
The "vegans kill animals" argument is a desperate attempt to excuse breeding, raping, raising, taking babies away from
their moms, and killing animals for humans to eat them. How many mouse and rat traps are sold in the USA annually?.
How many insect and mosquito traps/ devices are sold annually?.
Omnivores care not about mice, small rodents, and insects until they needed an excuse to criticize vegans.
(1)Try watching these video's about vegan criticisms and see many holes in omnivore excuses. Maybe there is a comeback.
I do know that IF a mouse or small animal is killed by combines, IT BECOMES FOOD FOR HAWKS, EAGLES, FOXES, CROWS,
and other beings. I do know that the grains used to feed farm animals in the USA yearly can feed 800 million humans. cheers.

(2) no offense, but if you want to put him on the defense, talk about meat putrefying, rotting, and stinking in the human body.
It creates ammonia, sulfur, putrescine, and cadaverine in the human body. Not attractive for a lover to encounter.
(3) Talk about E.D. which is not caused by almonds, walnuts, beans, or avocado's. But it can be reversed by a whole food vegan diet.
Erectile Dysfunction: Cause and Cure | Not Clickbait
Raise the Flag with a Vegan Diet

 

[Brian W]

I watched this Joey Carbstrong clip about a recent Piers Morgan incident. In an interview with a vegan activist, Morgen was able to make her look pretty silly. OK, he's a bully and isn't going to give her an even break, but just the same it's not like he's come up with any new arguments. Activists really should be better prepared.

Still, does he have a point? What *are* the correct responses to these kinds of charges? He really only made a couple of points - that many crops cause environmental harm and that many small animals are killed to grow crops. How should an almond milk drinking vegan counter that? Sure, many non-vegans are drinking almond milk, the question is should vegans. If almond milk causes these harms, what is a vegan defence for doing so? The critic wins if the activist cannot provide a reasonable counter-argument.

Here is Unnatural Vegan's take:

 

[silva]

I'm 100% with unnatural vegan.
The worst things I find to turn people away from veganism is the extreme health stories. Giving up animal products will not cure ED, or cancer, or much of anything else in humans. Eating eggs for breakfast is not equal to smoking a pack a day! It helps animals. If you're going to make those statements you need to specify WFPB, which has an awful lot of advocates who are not only not vegan, but many are more anti vegan than most omnis!

Meat and dairy are the norm. Getting people to understand they're not important, and not necessarily the tastiest of foods
Micheal Pollan in his book and doc The Omnivores Dilemma did more to encourage plant foods than most AR

When you focus on the extremes people fight back and shut down. Saying go vegan because why not is a far better discussion

 

[VeganRachel]

I'm 100% with unnatural vegan.
The worst things I find to turn people away from veganism is the extreme health stories. Giving up animal products will not cure ED, or cancer, or much of anything else in humans. Eating eggs for breakfast is not equal to smoking a pack a day! It helps animals. If you're going to make those statements you need to specify WFPB, which has an awful lot of advocates who are not only not vegan, but many are more anti vegan than most omnis!

Meat and dairy are the norm. Getting people to understand they're not important, and not necessarily the tastiest of foods
Micheal Pollan in his book and doc The Omnivores Dilemma did more to encourage plant foods than most AR

When you focus on the extremes people fight back and shut down. Saying go vegan because why not is a far better discussion

Hi there. There are many stories of vegans beating health problems and I do not know if i would label that extreme.
Dr. Esselstyn has many heart patients who clean up their diets with a whole food vegan diet and can raise their flag again.
This is one of many examples. Read comments on many websites and video's, there are many success stories.

If someone states, veganism can cure "x", that may be stretching the point. But a whole food vegan "diet" does allow
the person to obtain more fiber, less saturated fats, and other benefits.

I think the biggest problem for veganism is humans are habitual and addicted to flesh and blood, etcetera. They do
not like giving up their 'fix", dislike change, and do not want to stick out of the crowd. Most humans do not try
veganism because it is an "extreme", they try it because they want to improve their health. cheers.

 

[silva]

Hi there. There are many stories of vegans beating health problems and I do not know if i would label that extreme.
Dr. Esselstyn has many heart patients who clean up their diets with a whole food vegan diet and can raise their flag again.
This is one of many examples. Read comments on many websites and video's, there are many success stories.

If someone states, veganism can cure "x", that may be stretching the point. But a whole food vegan "diet" does allow
the person to obtain more fiber, less saturated fats, and other benefits.

I think the biggest problem for veganism is humans are habitual and addicted to flesh and blood, etcetera. They do
not like giving up their 'fix", dislike change, and do not want to stick out of the crowd. Most humans do not try
veganism because it is an "extreme", they try it because they want to improve their health. cheers.

Again, conflating veganism with a plant based health diet.
I am well aware of the benefits of a wfpb diet, and have not only proven it for myself, but have witnessed people who tried it as a last resort given a new lease on life. While wfpb qualifies as a diet a vegan can fully eat, it does not need to have anything more in common with veganism, and many who follow it for health can be adamantly against what vegans stand for

A vegans diet does not say what they eat, only what they don't eat.

I'm quite tired of hearing vegans berated for not choosing the healthiest item. They have choice, animals do not.

While I've known people who have gone plant based for health, I know far more who would stay vegan if they liked the food choices as much as they like animal products. I know many who go out of their way to get a Beyond burger, and have switched to non dairy milks because they like them. They have no more, and no less, interest in health, and would be vegan if it were as good, easy and available as the diet they're now on