Rampant Racism in America

This may be a little controversial, but I want to see what some of you think about whether racism is natural.

This is certainly not the conventional viewpoint. People tend to believe that most people are not racist at all, and that a few people are racist, and that they are terrible, and should be ostracised. I suspect this is because we want to believe that "natural" is "good" and the idea that people might be fundamentally racist is too bad to contemplate. Since we don't want to believe it, we don't believe it. Popular comments like "children just don't grow up racist" imply that we start off totally un-racist, and only the exposure to other racists can mean people themselves become racist. But if you think about it, this attitude is promoted by facebook memes and tweets and offhand comments; nothing of any real substance ever backs any of it up.

Many vegans and ethical vegetarians have already managed to reject the nature = good belief, so maybe you have a better chance of approaching this with an open mind.

There is a logical reason why in evolution we might be born racist, as a defence mechanism. If a person of different skin tone appears next to you it may indicate danger in the sense of a neighbouring tribe (for this to be true, we must assume that early people were warlike savages rather than friendly). Try to imagine how you would feel if late at night you were walking down the street and suddenly a person with green skin appeared out of the gloom. Can you honestly say you would react exactly the same as if the person were the same ethnicity as you, or a well known ethnicity. Or might you have just a slightly more fearful reaction, at least for a split second? Different is scary.

There is also support for the idea that racism is natural in scientific studies. This article Obama’s viral tweet is wrong: Research shows babies are totally racist explains tests that showed that older babies and younger children and more drawn to people of the same ethnicity, even at a young age when cultural factors (bias from family and society) probably cannot be influencing them. In fact a similar study from Birgitte Vitttrup, documented in the book Nurtureshock explicitly controlled for this (or tried to) by asking children what they thought about white and black people and what their parents thought, and finding children expressing racist opinions that their parents didn't have, or stating that they didn't know their parents opinions. Other studies that put children of different ethnicities together at a very young age found the children played more with children of the same ethnicity. I have found a smaller number of studies which drew opposite conclusions, but they seemed less convincing to me.

One of the reasons that it's popular to believe that children are born without racism may be that people want to believe this because then parents can avoid awkward conversations with their kids. The important point is that if I'm right, children are being brought up with no racial related education, when they might really benefit from it. Instead of the conventional wisdom being true - i.e. that a tiny minority of people are racist and everyone else not at all - it may be closer to the truth to say that most people are to a greater or lesser extent at least slightly racist (at least to start with) and there is actually a continuum from not racist at all to very racist.

MOD EDIT: This post has been copied to a new thread, please continue this discussion there: Is racism natural? Are we born racist?
 
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People’s “natural inclination” is also to rape attractive members of the opposite sex if they feel really horny, but most of us somehow manage to overcome that “urge”.

Should we be commended on that examplary display of civilization?
 
People’s “natural inclination” is also to rape attractive members of the opposite sex if they feel really horny

No, it isn't. I haven't ever wanted to rape or sexually molest anyone. It's interesting to find out that you do, though.
 
People’s “natural inclination” is also to rape attractive members of the opposite sex if they feel really horny, but most of us somehow manage to overcome that “urge”.

Should we be commended on that examplary display of civilization?
:wtf:No words....
 
I come back to the thread and notice that my last post has caused quite a stir - and rightfully so, as it was unacceptable and thoughtless :(

Unacceptable as I made light of a serious crime, as was pointed out by some. I realize that my male privilege, never having to even think about the risk of sexual violence, makes me seriously underestimate and neglect what a horrifying threat this is for every woman, who always has to be aware of the possibility and also way too often has to experience it. As a man I don’t even think much about it, as it will likely never concern me :(.

And no, trying to protest one injustice (racism) while making myself guilty of another (sexism) is also something I should try not to do again. I realize that I have offended every person who has ever been the victim of sexual violence, and want to apologize for that.

Secondly, it was thoughtless and I realize that posting something without thinking is not a valid apology at all.

Full disclosure here - I personally have not, at any occasion, felt the urge to sexually asault anybody else, and it is not right from me to assert there are people who do feel such urges. I have also, until now, not really thought about why that is the case, whether it is our education, our upbringing or simply years of experience and practice. I should have thought about it, because what my post was referring to was Freud‘s theory of personality of 3 elements composing our psychology, id, ego and super-ego. Those are actually explained in text books I have read as ID seeing a boob and having the impulse of wanting to touch it, and Super-Ego reigning in Id and saying „Hey, we can‘t do that“. Of course, those are not real „split parts“ of our personality that interact with each other, so people do not really „get urges“ like that and have to reign them in actively (or, if they do, they should seek the help of a psychologist). As the article in question was about „natural felings“ a new-born baby that was never socialized has, that was my example why such a „natural reflex“ does not make much sense to me as an explanation, and my example was of course a very wrong and bad one.

I understand that there are people on this forum who will not believe my explanation, because they have a certain idea of me, but I guess there is little I can do about that.

Again, I apologize for my very bad and unsuitable post and realize that „I posted before I had thought it through“ is not a very good explanation.
 
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I come back to the thread and notice that my last post has caused quite a stir - and rightfully so, as it was unacceptable and thoughtless :(

Unacceptable as I made light of a serious crime, as was pointed out by some. I realize that my male privilege, never having to even think about the risk of sexual violence, makes me seriously underestimate and neglect what a horrifying threat this is for every woman, who always has to be aware of the possibility and also way too often has to experience it. As a man I don’t even think much about it, as it will likely never concern me :(. I realize that I have offended every person who has ever been the victim of sexual violence, and want to apologize for that.

Secondly, it was thoughtless and I realize that posting something without thinking is not a valid apology at all.

Full disclosure here - I personally have not, at any occasion, felt the urge to sexually asault anybody else, and it is not right from me to assert there are people who do feel such urges. I have also, until now, not really thought about why that is the case, whether it is our education, our upbringing or simply years of experience and practice. I should have thought about it, because what my post was referring to was Freud‘s theory of personality of 3 elements composing our psychology, id, ego and super-ego. Those are actually explained in text books I have read as ID seeing a boob and having the impulse of wanting to touch it, and Super-Ego reigning in Id and saying „Hey, we can‘t do that“. Of course, those are not real „split parts“ of our personality that interact with each other, so people do not really „get urges“ like that and have to reign them in actively (or, if they do, they should seek the help of a psychologist). As the article in question was about „natural felings“ a new-born baby that was never socialized has, that was my example why such a „natural reflex“ does not make much sense to me as an explanation, and my example was of course a very wrong and bad one.

I understand that there are people on this forum who will not believe my explanation, because they have a certain idea of me, but I guess there is little I can do about that.

Again, I apologize for my very bad and unsuitable post and realize that „I posted before I had thought it through“ is not a very good explanation.

The way I interpreted your original post was this way:

There are a number of behaviors that humans engaged in for a long, long time that were considered "natural" and that we have come to understand over time are despicable and morally unconscionable.

Unfortunately, rape has been one of those behaviors (slavery, physical abuse of wives and children, racist behavior, mockery, disdain and physical abuse of the physically and/or developmentally disabled, non-cis, or those in any way "different", religious intolerance, etc. - the list goes on and on, unfortunately).

Anyone who thinks that rape has always been considered to be a deviant act hasn't paid attention to history, including recent history. Even when it became unlawful, it became unlawful not because a woman's rights had been violated, but because she had become less valuable to the man to whom she belonged.

For crying out loud, I was an adult before the rape of a wife by her husband was legally considered to be a rape.

The sheer numbers of rapes and other sexual assaults, and this despite societal condemnation and punishment, points to it being a "natural"drive, just as aggression in its various forms (everything from war to physical assaults to all the various factors forms of verbal onslaughts we see every time we log into the internet) is a " natural" drive.

That's why the discussion of what's "natural" and what's not may be interesting from an academic point of view in trying to understand why certain undesirable human behaviors are so persistent, but we have to be careful to not use " natural" to excuse or justify had behavior.

Anyway, that was my interpretation of your post. :p
 
Rape is a sadistic crime. The average male certainly does not have these tendencies.

Yes, exactly. It is seriously creepy to find out that so many men do. I really fear for the daughters of men with those views about rape.
 
Anyway, that was my interpretation of your post

Indeed, that and hearing a million times lions being cited as an example for natural meat eating, but male lions who make it to the top of a pride also immediately kill off the offspring (baby lions) sired by their predecessors and get busy to get their own offspring regardless of the feelings of the lionesses - an example of “nature” which is often touted as something that “falsifies veganism”. But again, some examples are quite wrong to make without considering how they will be received by people with a different viewpoint.
 
I just was very taken aback & pretty f*cking creeped out by that post. :down:

Also, this discussion should probably be moved elsewhere....
 
Indeed, that and hearing a million times lions being cited as an example for natural meat eating, but male lions who make it to the top of a pride also immediately kill off the offspring (baby lions) sired by their predecessors and get busy to get their own offspring regardless of the feelings of the lionesses - an example of “nature” which is often touted as something that “falsifies veganism”. But again, some examples are quite wrong to make without considering how they will be received by people with a different viewpoint.
I took your post in the way as Mischief, and felt it was as valid as Jamies.
 
I grew up as one of very few white people in my neighborhood. Even though my school clearly talked of the racial history of America I didn't really know anything of racism until I found the white kids weren't just moving because of the excuses I was told, but because of race. I was around 10. So no, I don't think there is some kind of evolutionary response to people of other races. Now people with accents, or differences from what you're exposed to I can understand, but speaking of others with the same culture? No.
People in countries where vegetarianism is the norm have no urge to eat meat
I kinda find the offense taken by Andys post amusing considering that is does in fact exist in many societies and thought of in much the same way as racism
 
Missouri man wrongfully convicted in 2001 murder case still awaits release

CBS said:
A Missouri man hopes to walk out of prison today after serving nearly two decades for a murder he did not commit, in a case one judge called "manifest injustice." David Robinson was kept behind bars, even though another man confessed to the crime in 2004.

Robinson isn't the only one who says he's innocent; in February, a state judge agreed with him, and two weeks ago, the Missouri Supreme Court ordered his release.

And yet, Robinson remains in prison.