Reasons and processes behind reverting to meat-eating?

[SummerRain]

I find it to be the norm, myself. What I also find annoying is having a party and preparing a "strict vegetarian meal/buffet for people who eat a vegan diet" and rather than simply enjoying it, my veg* guests rant on at the stupidity of their other friends/family who can't do the same thing.

Every veg*n forum I've ever been a part of or have read has been full of this.
One Thanksgiving, I had prepared a big vegan meal. There were about twenty of us around the table, and other than I, there was only one other veg*n. She spent the entire meal lecturing the rest of the guests about how self centered they were for eating meat when they could always eat like this. I couldn't get her to shut up. She did this while wearing leather pants.

That's interesting. I wouldn't have said that of my own experience, I guess I wouldn't have interpreted people ranting/complaining/etc about other people eating meat as self-congratulation. Although I see what you mean, now that you've said it, but I've never seen it that way. I don't like it, but I see it more as angst/lack of manners than patting themselves on that back.

Although, tbf, the vegans and vegetarians I've met in real life are nothing like that (although online groups, definitely tend to be) - admittedly though, most of the vegetarians/vegans I know are young people and I met them via social groups rather than AR groups, so I think the demographic isn't all that representative - out of about 20 (trying to count now!) vegans I have met IRL, only one or two would have possibly ranted/lectured in a meal type situation. (It's harder to count for vegetarians, but at a guess, I'd say it was a similar amount).

 

[Second Summer]

I think it's actually pretty easy to be veg*n. I tend to find the self congratulatory back patting that so many of us indulge in to be rather off-putting.

Yes, it may be easy for you, but this thread provides multiple examples of how it's not so easy for many of us. So since we're veg*ns despite of all this, I think that is something we should celebrate. It's a good thing. We're pioneers leading the way. Our mere existence as veg*ns today will make it easier for the next generation to make the Right Choice.

Every veg*n forum I've ever been a part of or have read has been full of this.

One Thanksgiving, I had prepared a big vegan meal. There were about twenty of us around the table, and other than I, there was only one other veg*n. She spent the entire meal lecturing the rest of the guests about how self centered they were for eating meat when they could always eat like this. I couldn't get her to shut up. She did this while wearing leather pants.

That's not what I would call self-congratulatory back-patting exactly. On the contrary, that sounds precisely like one of those PETA people who thinks it's so easy, and then gets mad at all the meat eaters for not instantly converting.

 

[Clueless Git]

... and rather than simply enjoying it, my veg* guests rant on at the stupidity of their other friends/family who can't do the same thing.

I find that absolutely hilarious, in an embarrassing kinda way, because I used to do it.

More at ease with it now ...

Not understanding terminal stupidity and avoiding it like the plague is terminal stupidity in itself.

It's a cleft stick though ...

If you use avoidance to spare the terminally stupid (whom you can't understand) from your own terminal stupidity (which neither you nor they can understand) that offends them even more than just turning up and 'ranting'.

Which is basicaly the unresolvable problem I have right now with my non-vegan extended family.

 

[Clueless Git]

Our mere existence as veg*ns today will make it easier for the next generation to make the Right Choice.

Making the right choice would make it easier for others to make the right choice also. Yes.

Making a better but less than right choice only makes it harder for others to make the right choice though.

 

[Mischief]

Yes, it may be easy for you, but this thread provides multiple examples of how it's not so easy for many of us. So since we're veg*ns despite of all this, I think that is something we should celebrate. It's a good thing. We're pioneers leading the way. Our mere existence as veg*ns today will make it easier for the next generation to make the Right Choice.


That's not what I would call self-congratulatory back-patting exactly. On the contrary, that sounds precisely like one of those PETA people who thinks it's so easy, and then gets mad at all the meat eaters for not instantly converting.

My comment about the self congratulatory back patting on discussion boards was about self congratulatory back patting on discussion boards. Your comment about how special we are is an example of that, but it's a very regular occurrence.

The Thanksgiving dinner anecdote was simply an anecdote about how a veg*n can be inappropriately supercilious and superior while not seeing the mote in her own eye (wearing leather pants).

Both, I would venture to say, do nothing at all to convince others that it's a good thing to go veg*n.

I find the entire focus on "this is so hard, and we're so special for doing it" antithetical to what I consider veganism or ethical vegetarianism all about, which is not us and our egos.

 

[mary1]

I'm sure this is different for everyone, but when I first went vegan, I was kind of shocked into it. I just watched Earthlings and made the decision. Then for a few months, I was constantly feeding myself more information about AR and AW. Non-vegan anything turned me off. People eating meat around me made me want to cry.

About one year later, I was craving. I started to think about how maybe I wasn't really making a difference. And who cares anyway? Social events had put me in situations where I just wanted to be "normal" again. I was sick of being the butt of jokes (no matter how good natured they were intended to be). Basically, I wanted to make my life easier. Instead, I watched Earthlings for a second time. Reminded myself of why being vegan is important. Reminded myself who the real victims were.

I believe I will continue to need to remind myself. Luckily, I have since made vegan friends and it isn't so difficult anymore.

 

[Second Summer]

Making a better but less than right choice only makes it harder for others to make the right choice though.

That's debatable.

My comment about the self congratulatory back patting on discussion boards was about self congratulatory back patting on discussion boards. Your comment about how special we are is an example of that, but it's a very regular occurrence.

Is it? Can't say I agree.

The Thanksgiving dinner anecdote was simply an anecdote about how a veg*n can be inappropriately supercilious and superior while not seeing the mote in her own eye (wearing leather pants).

I still don't see the back-patting aspect of it. You said she was "lecturing the rest of the guests about how self centered they were for eating meat". That's talking the others down, not talking herself up.

Both, I would venture to say, do nothing at all to convince others that it's a good thing to go veg*n.

The "back-patting" I'm a proponent of has to do with increasing morale and allowing some positivity for a change. A movement that is only about self-sacrifice and thinking about suffering will never have sufficient appeal or potency to make it into the mainstream and win the hearts and minds of the majority.

I find the entire focus on "this is so hard, and we're so special for doing it" antithetical to what I consider veganism or ethical vegetarianism all about, which is not us and our egos.

I don't see it as antithetical. As long as it doesn't take the main focus away from the real issues, I don't see a problem with it.

 

[nigel1]

I find that absolutely hilarious, in an embarrassing kinda way, because I used to do it.

More at ease with it now ...

Not understanding terminal stupidity and avoiding it like the plague is terminal stupidity in itself.

It's a cleft stick though ...

If you use avoidance to spare the terminally stupid (whom you can't understand) from your own terminal stupidity (which neither you nor they can understand) that offends them even more than just turning up and 'ranting'.

Which is basicaly the unresolvable problem I have right now with my non-vegan extended family.

I don't understand. Did you just call me terminally stupid?

 

[Clueless Git]

I don't understand. Did you just call me terminally stupid?

I don't understand how you might have thought I did.

 

[nigel1]

I don't understand how you might have thought I did.

It seemed like an almost direct quote. I gotta say, my wife is British, half of my family is British. They speak like English and Scottish people. And 99% of the time, I have no idea what you're trying to communicate. I can't believe it's a simple matter of dialects.

 

[Moll Flanders]

The "back-patting" I'm a proponent of has to do with increasing morale and allowing some positivity for a change. A movement that is only about self-sacrifice and thinking about suffering will never have sufficient appeal or potency to make it into the mainstream and win the hearts and minds of the majority.

I agree.

I actually joined The Vegan Forum precisely because I felt it was hard going and I wanted some support from other vegans. I don't think it is that unusual for people to struggle when they make a lifestyle change, especially when vegetarians and vegans make up such a small amount of the population and Western culture is very food based. I have had friends who have tried to be vegetarian or even tried to stop eating meat for Lent and found it very difficult and have given up.

 

[Clueless Git]

It seemed like an almost direct quote.

Well I was talking about me being exactly the type of guest you were talking about, Nigel.

And 99% of the time, I have no idea what you're trying to communicate.

A common sense rating of 99% for you, against 1% for me, would probably be the reason for that.

 

[Clueless Git]

That's debatable.

I had a chap who argued that 2+2=4 was debatable once, IS.

By the simple expediency of refusing to accept the traditional values of either 2 or 4 he proved himself right.

 

[Clueless Git]

A movement that is only about self-sacrifice and thinking about suffering will never have sufficient appeal or potency to make it into the mainstream and win the hearts and minds of the majority.

For the exact opposite reason that 99% of people will agree with that, I agree with that too.

 

[beancounter]

I had a chap who argued that 2+2=4 was debatable once, IS.

By the simple expediency of refusing to accept the traditional values of either 2 or 4 he proved himself right.

But 1+1 can equal 3 (or more) under certain conditions.

 

[nigel1]

Well I was talking about me being exactly the type of guest you were talking about, Nigel.

It's "nigel"

A common sense rating of 99% for you, against 1% for me, would probably be the reason for that.

case in point

 

[nigel1]

A movement that is only about self-sacrifice and thinking about suffering will never have sufficient appeal or potency to make it into the mainstream and win the hearts and minds of the majority.

The notion of "self-sacrifice" is pretty-much one of most offensive claims that I hear from (unfortunately many) vegans/vegetarians, particularly those who claim to have chosen their lifestyle for moral reasons. How is it ever a sacrifice to do the right thing? To not take something that isn't yours in the first place? If I want money and I don't kill someone so I can get his, is that a sacrifice on my part?

 

[Kasandra]

I had a few family crises this year and took a lot,of strain. My eating over all wasnt the best. Everyone around me tried to convince me it was,my lack of protein. Under the pressure i ate fish at one meal. I was so repulsed i almost vomited it up.again. my feeling weak got nothing to do with meat i must just eat better over all. I still struggle but can never eat animals. Interesting about the vitb12 i do injections weekly and been feeling more energetic.

 

[Second Summer]

The notion of "self-sacrifice" is pretty-much one of most offensive claims that I hear from (unfortunately many) vegans/vegetarians, particularly those who claim to have chosen their lifestyle for moral reasons. How is it ever a sacrifice to do the right thing? To not take something that isn't yours in the first place?

I think most people in this thread will agree that in a society of people who don't share your values and practices, it takes extraordinary determination, will-power, and effort to live your life according to said values. Humans are herd animals, and it's so easy to go with the herd. Despite all this, you make the right choices and do the right thing. So you give up something(1) in order to get something else(2) that you consider more important. That is the text-book definition of "sacrifice".

1) such as your time & effort, a potential career path, the convenience of eating what everyone else eats, the acceptance of certain family members.
2) the peace of mind that comes from living life according to your values.

 

[nigel1]

I think most people in this thread will agree that in a society of people who don't share your values and practices, it takes extraordinary determination, will-power, and effort to live your life according to said values. Humans are herd animals, and it's so easy to go with the herd. Despite all this, you make the right choices and do the right thing. So you give up something(1) in order to get something else(2) that you consider more important. That is the text-book definition of "sacrifice".

1) such as your time & effort, a potential career path, the convenience of eating what everyone else eats, the acceptance of certain family members.
2) the peace of mind that comes from living life according to your values.

I'm fine with your definition, but the point is, you are "giving up" something that doesn't belong to you in the first place. Would you consider a slave-owner's freeing a slave sacrifice? A burglar giving back the diamonds? I wouldn't.

Interesting (to me) aside, I was researching sacrifice and peoples' perspectives on it in terms of altruism and social credit years ago, and that's how I discovered VeggieBoards.