Should Men Wear Make-up?

[mlp]

I also have a problem with people told, time and again, that they are too emotional about an issue, and/or that their experiences are not valid or that they are "making things up," just because someone else hasn't had the same experiences.

Could you provide links to/copy where this has been done?

 

[Amy SF]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...eup-photo_n_3165135.html?utm_hp_ref=celebrity

Very nice. HuffPost devotes an entire article telling everyone how ugly Maria Shriver looks without makeup.

 

[yally]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...eup-photo_n_3165135.html?utm_hp_ref=celebrity

Very nice. HuffPost devotes an entire article telling everyone how ugly Maria Shriver looks without makeup.

URRRGH WHAT A ****

She also appears to be wearing make up in the photo. Doh.

 

[Ansciess]

It must be hard for some female celebrities to go without make-up, because that becomes the story. Many articles are devoted to female celebrities without make-up - even CNN has an article titled "photos: celebrities without makeup." To me she actually does look to be wearing make-up, it's just an unflattering picture.

 

[mlp]

Let me preface this by saying that I wore makeup for many years and I will almost certainly wear it again at some point.
This discussion got started because of an article someone posted about concealer being marketed to men. I hope it doesn’t take off. I hope that men are more resistant to marketing by cosmetics companies, more resistant to buying into society’s message that they just aren’t good enough if they don’t look a certain way, than women have been.
Looks are superficial. They have no value compared to the content of our character, no value compared to how we live our lives. Yet we are so focused on them, we spend so much of our time and our money on them, and we, especially we women, judge ourselves and each other by them. And I’m not just talking about makeup; the obsession carries through into our body image, dieting, eating disorders, clothing, shoes, etc.
All of that, to me, is sad. What I find surprising is people trying to deny that societal expectations (and resulting personal insecurities) are the major determinative factor in decisions about makeup, clothing, and other matters of personal appearance.

When I was a child, my mother kept buying various stuff to put on my face to try to prevent freckles. It didn’t work, and God only knows how I didn’t end up with a complex about my freckles.

When I was in high school, a teacher told me I should pluck my eyebrows. I didn’t see the point.
When I was in college, my roommate wanted to put makeup on me when we went to parties, and I generally let her. That lasted for the year and a half we lived together.

When I finished graduate school and started working, I saw that there was an expectation to look a certain way. So I bought suits, I put on discreet makeup, I plucked my eyebrows, and I styled my hair and wore hairspray, all because it was part of the job, but I didn’t like it.

And then I gradually found myself needing to put on makeup before I left the house, and not just to go to work. I no longer liked the way I looked without it. I find that fact sad. I let societal expectations change my perception of myself, even though, as a child, I had been strong enough to not let my mother’s freckle aversion affect my self image. The child was stronger and more confident than the woman. I wonder at that now.

It was hard to wean myself off of makeup. I had never worn much – just enough to highlight my eyes, and a little blusher. At first, I felt exposed, less confident, leaving the house without makeup, even though my rational mind knew that true self confidence comes from within, not from a mask.

The older I get, the more I realize the extent to which we humans remain pack/herd animals, wanting/needing to fit in, to project the same image as the others of our chosen group, whether that group is a profession or a subculture.

After I move back to St. Louis and get everyone settled, I’m going to rejoin the workforce. That means I’ll start wearing some makeup again, and I’ll even dye my hair, so that I’ll look a little younger, because that will improve my prospects. I wish that weren’t necessary, because I actually prefer myself without that artifice.

So, men, don’t buy into that advertising that says that your value is diminished if your skintone isn’t perfectly even, if your hair is gray, etc. Don’t fall into the trap where you need to hide behind makeup before you walk out the door. It’s bad enough that we women have done it; don’t let the contagion spread to you.

 

[Clueless Git]

No I'm not angry, just amused that some folk can't figure out what I'm really up to here.

What are you really up to here PJ?

 

[kibbleforlola]

Those are good points, mlp, about why some women might feel pressured to wear makeup; and no, I agree that no one should feel like they are worth less some how because they don't wear any.

But surely you can concede how some women (and men, and gender non-conformers) might see makeup differently? Not as an artifice but as a way to express themselves, a creative outlet?

See, like you, I also had a mother. My mother also wore makeup. Unlike you, my mother never attempted to force me into makeup or change the way I looked or conceal freckles. With the exception of sunscreen in the summer (because I've always burned easily), my mother never put anything on my skin except for soap. I did, however, get a lot of her make-up cast offs, and often she would let me pick out one thing when she would make an avon order. I played with make up the same way I played with markers and crayons. And unless we were going somewhere like church, my mother let me do whatever the hell I wanted with my face - because it was mine. Blue eyeshadow up to the brows? Ok. Super bright lipstick smeared all over my mouth? Sure. Every finger nail painted a different color? She'd paint hers right along side me. And now, as an adult, makeup is still a creative outlet for me. I am still drawn to bright colors - although I've learned to make it look less clown like, and I still like to "play" with all of my products, to create a new and different me every time I wear makeup. And yes, I am perfectly fine running errands or whatever out of the house barefaced. Because that's my face, too.

Like I said, I'm a woman's studies major, I think about feminism and feminist related issues all day. I've thought about the politics of clothing and shoe and makeup choices before, and I will probably consider them again. Hell, maybe I'll write a paper/blog/book on performing gender through fashion choices. I still choose to wear makeup, because makeup makes me happy. The goal of (my) feminism is not to make women men, but to create a world in which gender doesn't matter, and where the default gender is not "male" and everything else is a lesser variation. That means in my feminist utopia, all genders can choose to wear makeup if they want to, or choose to go bare faced if they want to, and face no repercussions from the gender-police if their choice doesn't conform.

 

[KLS52]

Let me preface this by saying that I wore makeup for many years and I will almost certainly wear it again at some point.
This discussion got started because of an article someone posted about concealer being marketed to men. I hope it doesn’t take off. I hope that men are more resistant to marketing by cosmetics companies, more resistant to buying into society’s message that they just aren’t good enough if they don’t look a certain way, than women have been.
Looks are superficial. They have no value compared to the content of our character, no value compared to how we live our lives. Yet we are so focused on them, we spend so much of our time and our money on them, and we, especially we women, judge ourselves and each other by them. And I’m not just talking about makeup; the obsession carries through into our body image, dieting, eating disorders, clothing, shoes, etc.
All of that, to me, is sad. What I find surprising is people trying to deny that societal expectations (and resulting personal insecurities) are the major determinative factor in decisions about makeup, clothing, and other matters of personal appearance.

When I was a child, my mother kept buying various stuff to put on my face to try to prevent freckles. It didn’t work, and God only knows how I didn’t end up with a complex about my freckles.

When I was in high school, a teacher told me I should pluck my eyebrows. I didn’t see the point.
When I was in college, my roommate wanted to put makeup on me when we went to parties, and I generally let her. That lasted for the year and a half we lived together.

When I finished graduate school and started working, I saw that there was an expectation to look a certain way. So I bought suits, I put on discreet makeup, I plucked my eyebrows, and I styled my hair and wore hairspray, all because it was part of the job, but I didn’t like it.

And then I gradually found myself needing to put on makeup before I left the house, and not just to go to work. I no longer liked the way I looked without it. I find that fact sad. I let societal expectations change my perception of myself, even though, as a child, I had been strong enough to not let my mother’s freckle aversion affect my self image. The child was stronger and more confident than the woman. I wonder at that now.

It was hard to wean myself off of makeup. I had never worn much – just enough to highlight my eyes, and a little blusher. At first, I felt exposed, less confident, leaving the house without makeup, even though my rational mind knew that true self confidence comes from within, not from a mask.

The older I get, the more I realize the extent to which we humans remain pack/herd animals, wanting/needing to fit in, to project the same image as the others of our chosen group, whether that group is a profession or a subculture.

After I move back to St. Louis and get everyone settled, I’m going to rejoin the workforce. That means I’ll start wearing some makeup again, and I’ll even dye my hair, so that I’ll look a little younger, because that will improve my prospects. I wish that weren’t necessary, because I actually prefer myself without that artifice.

So, men, don’t buy into that advertising that says that your value is diminished if your skintone isn’t perfectly even, if your hair is gray, etc. Don’t fall into the trap where you need to hide behind makeup before you walk out the door. It’s bad enough that we women have done it; don’t let the contagion spread to you.

The text that I accented really strikes a chord with me. I am annoyed with myself because I place so much of "who I am" on how I look. I don't mean to get so personal, but it's difficult when you are one of the ones who isn't necessarily "pretty". And I'm not talking about a skewed sense of self image. When makeup can help accent 1-2 positive features that you may have, so that even though you may not be pretty, you can look and feel somewhat cute or attractive, it's hard to give that up. And it gets harder the older I get. Especially when society is throwing all kinds of beautiful people and expectations at us at every turn. I don't know about anyone else, but I've been on earth for a while and it is very apparent to me that, outside of family and really close friends, we are judged by our appearance. And that is sad. Very, very sad. Anyway, not sure if I went way off topic as I did not read the entire thread.

 

[thefadedone]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...eup-photo_n_3165135.html?utm_hp_ref=celebrity

Very nice. HuffPost devotes an entire article telling everyone how ugly Maria Shriver looks without makeup.

She doesn't need the media claiming that she's ugly without makeup. Arnold seems to do a pretty good job at that already.

 

[Amy SF]

Let me preface this by saying that I wore makeup for many years and I will almost certainly wear it again at some point.
This discussion got started because of an article someone posted about concealer being marketed to men. I hope it doesn’t take off. I hope that men are more resistant to marketing by cosmetics companies, more resistant to buying into society’s message that they just aren’t good enough if they don’t look a certain way, than women have been.
Looks are superficial. They have no value compared to the content of our character, no value compared to how we live our lives. Yet we are so focused on them, we spend so much of our time and our money on them, and we, especially we women, judge ourselves and each other by them. And I’m not just talking about makeup; the obsession carries through into our body image, dieting, eating disorders, clothing, shoes, etc.
All of that, to me, is sad. What I find surprising is people trying to deny that societal expectations (and resulting personal insecurities) are the major determinative factor in decisions about makeup, clothing, and other matters of personal appearance.

When I was a child, my mother kept buying various stuff to put on my face to try to prevent freckles. It didn’t work, and God only knows how I didn’t end up with a complex about my freckles.

When I was in high school, a teacher told me I should pluck my eyebrows. I didn’t see the point.
When I was in college, my roommate wanted to put makeup on me when we went to parties, and I generally let her. That lasted for the year and a half we lived together.

When I finished graduate school and started working, I saw that there was an expectation to look a certain way. So I bought suits, I put on discreet makeup, I plucked my eyebrows, and I styled my hair and wore hairspray, all because it was part of the job, but I didn’t like it.

And then I gradually found myself needing to put on makeup before I left the house, and not just to go to work. I no longer liked the way I looked without it. I find that fact sad. I let societal expectations change my perception of myself, even though, as a child, I had been strong enough to not let my mother’s freckle aversion affect my self image. The child was stronger and more confident than the woman. I wonder at that now.

It was hard to wean myself off of makeup. I had never worn much – just enough to highlight my eyes, and a little blusher. At first, I felt exposed, less confident, leaving the house without makeup, even though my rational mind knew that true self confidence comes from within, not from a mask.

The older I get, the more I realize the extent to which we humans remain pack/herd animals, wanting/needing to fit in, to project the same image as the others of our chosen group, whether that group is a profession or a subculture.

After I move back to St. Louis and get everyone settled, I’m going to rejoin the workforce. That means I’ll start wearing some makeup again, and I’ll even dye my hair, so that I’ll look a little younger, because that will improve my prospects. I wish that weren’t necessary, because I actually prefer myself without that artifice.

So, men, don’t buy into that advertising that says that your value is diminished if your skintone isn’t perfectly even, if your hair is gray, etc. Don’t fall into the trap where you need to hide behind makeup before you walk out the door. It’s bad enough that we women have done it; don’t let the contagion spread to you.

This is exactly what I was originally trying to say. Perhaps I didn't phrase it as well. And it describes my relationship with makeup, too. And what's sad is that the older I get, the more makeup I need to live up to society's standard of attractiveness.

 

[Moll Flanders]

The goal of (my) feminism is not to make women men, but to create a world in which gender doesn't matter, and where the default gender is not "male" and everything else is a lesser variation. That means in my feminist utopia, all genders can choose to wear makeup if they want to, or choose to go bare faced if they want to, and face no repercussions from the gender-police if their choice doesn't conform.

Wow, very well put.

 

[beancounter]

I don't understand why this topic is so controversial.

Whoever wants to wear makeup should, and whoever doesn't want to want to wear makeup shouldn't.

Men who chose to may have to deal with people who frown on it, but it's a free country and their choice.

 

[kibbleforlola]

Wow, very well put.

Thank you.

 

[Calliegirl]

I think the photoshopped pictures of ultra skinny women in magazines is far more dangerous than the wearing of make-up.

It's bad either way when someone is doing it to meet some ridiculous beauty standard, but I'm more worried about the people starving themselves and having cosmetic surgery because of it.

I've never been one to follow any beauty trends. I've been hopelessly out of style my whole life, as I wore what I liked and was comfortable in. Other then the few dressy excursions I mentioned earlier, I wear makeup when and if I feel like it, in whatever style I like. The same goes for my hair. I've never felt the need to follow what society or the 'in' crowd says I need to do to be accepted by them. If I did, I never would have become a vegan or posted in a public forum that I'm an Atheist.

 

[Amy SF]

I think the photoshopped pictures of ultra skinny women in magazines is far more dangerous than the wearing of make-up.

It's bad either way when someone is doing it to meet some ridiculous beauty standard, but I'm more worried about the people starving themselves and having cosmetic surgery because of it.

I've never been one to follow any beauty trends. I've been hopelessly out of style my whole life, as I wore what I liked and was comfortable in. Other then the few dressy excursions I mentioned earlier, I wear makeup when and if I feel like it, in whatever style I like. The same goes for my hair. I've never felt the need to follow what society or the 'in' crowd says I need to do to be accepted by them. If I did, I never would have become a vegan or posted in a public forum that I'm an Atheist.

You radical, you.

 

[Moll Flanders]

I've never felt the need to follow what society or the 'in' crowd says I need to do to be accepted by them. If I did, I never would have become a vegan or posted in a public forum that I'm an Atheist.

 

[yally]

A FB group I follow drew attention to Mary Wollstonecraft's birthday with this quote

Taught from their infancy that beauty is woman's sceptre, the mind shapes itself to the body, and, roaming round its gilt cage, only seeks to adorn its prison.

Which I like

 

[KLS52]

I've never felt the need to follow what society or the 'in' crowd says I need to do to be accepted by them. If I did, I never would have become a vegan or posted in a public forum that I'm an Atheist.

That is admirable.

 

[Freesia]

Those are good points, mlp, about why some women might feel pressured to wear makeup; and no, I agree that no one should feel like they are worth less some how because they don't wear any.

But surely you can concede how some women (and men, and gender non-conformers) might see makeup differently? Not as an artifice but as a way to express themselves, a creative outlet?

See, like you, I also had a mother. My mother also wore makeup. Unlike you, my mother never attempted to force me into makeup or change the way I looked or conceal freckles. With the exception of sunscreen in the summer (because I've always burned easily), my mother never put anything on my skin except for soap.

You are lucky, my mother has always bothered me about makeup. In a way it is why I resist wearing it except for special occasions. It is not because of a dislike for makeup or a disbelief in it, I just dont really want to wear it that often, and I find it bothersome that she has an opinion on it. I wish she would not comment at all on how much makeup I am or am not wearing and it makes me rebellious.

I guess the number one reason I dont wear it is appearance laziness, it has nothing to do with politics, I am kind of a jeans and tshirt sort of person during the day and I just brush my hair and dont do anything with it, i dont even dry it after washing.

 

[mlp]

But surely you can concede how some women (and men, and gender non-conformers) might see makeup differently? Not as an artifice but as a way to express themselves, a creative outlet?

Sure, I see it as possible; I just have never met anyone who has done it as a purely creative outlet, and that includes transgendered people, goths, etc. There's always been something else that lies underneath it, whether for a transgendered person to feel like a woman (because of course, women wear makeup, so if you want to feel/look more like the woman you are inside, it's a very obvious way to accomplish that), or a goth to signal her/his participation in the goth subculture, etc.) Decisions about appearance, about how one wants to present oneself, are inevitably linked to the society/subculture in which one has grown up, the society/subculture in which one lives, the society/subculture to which one aspires. To argue otherwise is to argue that nurture has had absolutely no affect on the person one is, that one was born this way, and that one would be exactly the same if one had grown up on a desert island without ever setting eyes on or being affected/influenced by another human being. And even then, the biological imperatives remain, the same ones that cause birds to display their plummages and engage in mating dances.

See, like you, I also had a mother. My mother also wore makeup. Unlike you, my mother never attempted to force me into makeup or change the way I looked or conceal freckles. With the exception of sunscreen in the summer (because I've always burned easily), my mother never put anything on my skin except for soap. I did, however, get a lot of her make-up cast offs, and often she would let me pick out one thing when she would make an avon order. I played with make up the same way I played with markers and crayons. And unless we were going somewhere like church, my mother let me do whatever the hell I wanted with my face - because it was mine. Blue eyeshadow up to the brows? Ok. Super bright lipstick smeared all over my mouth? Sure. Every finger nail painted a different color? She'd paint hers right along side me. And now, as an adult, makeup is still a creative outlet for me. I am still drawn to bright colors - although I've learned to make it look less clown like, and I still like to "play" with all of my products, to create a new and different me every time I wear makeup.

Oh, my mother didn't force me to wear makeup; she just had a thing about my freckles, probably because she was born in 1919 and grew up at a time when the conventional beauty standards decried freckles. My mother was a farmer, physically working the fields, the only woman in the wider area who did that until my current neighbor to the west started working their fields with her husband (and Linda still remains the only woman in the area to do so - she and my now dead mother are oddities). My mother didn't have the time or patience for makeup.

But don't you see that, growing up around makeup, having makeup as something a woman does being modelled for you by your mother, influenced you and your perceptions? I know that the fact that my mother daily did more hard physical labor than any man I ever saw (and the same holds true with respect to my grandmother and her sisters - I come from a long line of peasant women) influenced me. Behavior always models more effectively than words.

And yes, I am perfectly fine running errands or whatever out of the house barefaced. Because that's my face, too.

That's good.

I suspect that your love for strong lip color is a way of signalling "I'm confident, I'm sexually confident, I'm strong", because that's what the current meaning of strong, bold lip color is. Being a woman studies major, you're probably aware that, at different times in the past, it's been used to send different signals, and that in years to come, it will be used to send yet different signals. That's what marketing is all about, after all, to convince us that if we buy product X, use product X, we will be perceived in such and such a way.

Like I said, I'm a woman's studies major, I think about feminism and feminist related issues all day. I've thought about the politics of clothing and shoe and makeup choices before, and I will probably consider them again. Hell, maybe I'll write a paper/blog/book on performing gender through fashion choices.

That's cool. And I have lived a good portion of feminism, from the end of the first wave, through the second, and then the third. I suspect I'll live to see at least a couple more. I haven't found feminist writings to be that interesting - the basics seem all too self evident to me, if one is a student of history and an interested observer in human interactions and proclivities. Feminist studies also seem to me to come from a position of privilege, much like books about the strategy of war are written either by generals or by observers of war, not by soldiers fighting in the trenches.

I still choose to wear makeup, because makeup makes me happy.

That's cool - we all need to do what gets us through the day.

The goal of (my) feminism is not to make women men,

I don't see that ever happening, since I do believe that there are biological differences. I'm happy to be a woman, and if I had another life to lead, would choose to lead it as a woman.

but to create a world in which gender doesn't matter,

Gender will always matter - it's part of who we are. If it didn't matter, there wouldn't be people who know that they are stuck in the wrong type of body.

and where the default gender is not "male" and everything else is a lesser variation.

Sure, that's how most of the world currently sees it. But you know what? The reason that I am happy that I am female rather than male, that, if given another life and a choice, I would choose to once again be a woman, is because I think, believe and feel that there is more potential there, in being female rather than male. It's only societal expectations, and our willingness/eagerness to conform to them that continues to hold us back. I've known more unique, truly independent, truly marching to their own drummer, women than I have known men. And none of them has given a tinker's damn about hwo they look, the face that they present, or how they are perceived by others. They're too busy pursuing their passions and living their lives.

That means in my feminist utopia, all genders can choose to wear makeup if they want to, or choose to go bare faced if they want to, and face no repercussions from the gender-police if their choice doesn't conform.

And in my utopia, superficialities like appearance won't matter, and no one will need to put on a mask.