NSFW THE TRUMPOCALYPSE

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Mischief said:
I think the Bernie liberals overestimate the palatability of their ideas, and they are going to try to push the Democrats to far to the left to permit them to win. And if the Democrats don't go as far to the left as the Bernie liberals want, then the Bernie liberals aren't going to turn out. And we'll have another four years of dt and/or Pence.
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This is why I consider voting a part of leftist action. You have to have a workable system before you can change it, unless you're willing and able to really break it, which no one seems to be.
 
Mischief said:
I think the Bernie liberals overestimate the palatability of their ideas, and they are going to try to push the Democrats to far to the left to permit them to win. And if the Democrats don't go as far to the left as the Bernie liberals want, then the Bernie liberals aren't going to turn out. And we'll have another four years of dt and/or Pence.
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The palatability you and Edward-Isaac Dovere have arrived at through polls and focus groups has for many years already been devoured with relish by the entire free world, and proven to be delicious indeed. As long as the Democratic Party refuses to lead in the direction Americans want to go, but instead follows their corporate donors, they will likely once again hand the elections to the GOP. I fear they are that stupid.
 
Capstan said:
The palatability you and Edward-Isaac Dovere have arrived at through polls and focus groups has for many years already been devoured with relish by the entire free world, and proven to be delicious indeed. As long as the Democratic Party refuses to lead in the direction Americans want to go, but instead follows their corporate donors, they will likely once again hand the elections to the GOP. I fear they are that stupid.
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You seem to have a pretty narrow definition of "free world." And even if you didn't, do you realize that there are significant differences between various countries and where they stand politically?

How many countries do you think have a single payer national healthcare system, for example?
 
Mischief said:
You seem to have a pretty narrow definition of "free world." And even if you didn't, do you realize that there are significant differences between various countries and where they stand politically?

How many countries do you think have a single payer national healthcare system, for example?
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I think the Democratic Party- or anyone else- following polls and focus groups, in an attempt to tailor a winning platform, is not leadership, but political manipulation. It's no wonder they lose. As I say, the Dems have become ignorant of who their base really is. If they would aggressively pursue issues that actually represent their base- not because they think it will win, but because it's representative- they'd stand a chance of earning back some of what they've lost. Americans are tired of manipulation, and I think last year's election proves it. A GOP win is bad, but its better than the hypocrisy the Dems threw up.
 
Capstan said:
I think the Democratic Party- or anyone else- following polls and focus groups, in an attempt to tailor a winning platform, is not leadership, but political manipulation. It's no wonder they lose. As I say, the Dems have become ignorant of who their base really is. If they would aggressively pursue issues that actually represent their base- not because they think it will win, but because it's representative- they'd stand a chance of earning back some of what they've lost. Americans are tired of manipulation, and I think last year's election proves it. A GOP win is bad, but its better than the hypocrisy the Dems threw up.
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So politicians shouldn't try to ascertain what their constituencies actually want?

And speaking of hypocrisy - is it hypocritical to promise what you can't actually deliver? Because that's one thing that Bernie did really well.

Also, it's really easy for you, as a cis white male to say that a GOP win is better than what the Dems stood for. You are not one of the people endangered by dt and the GOP.
 
Mischief said:
So politicians shouldn't try to ascertain what their constituencies actually want?

And speaking of hypocrisy - is it hypocritical to promise what you can't actually deliver? Because that's one thing that Bernie did really well.

Also, it's really easy for you, as a cis white male to say that a GOP win is better than what the Dems stood for. You are not one of the people endangered by dt and the GOP.
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I think Sen. Sanders, even though he too is a cis white male, gives you a better chance of gaining what you value, more than any other politician. You'd do well to learn who your friends are, rather than randomly bashing them, when they are trying to help you. Blaming Sanders supporters, such as myself, for Trump's win is devious, the stuff of fantasy and denial, an excuse for your own failures. You elected Trump just as much as I did. You want to elect him again? Then keep doing what you're doing: attacking those who advocate for you.
 
Capstan said:
I think Sen. Sanders, even though he too is a cis white male, gives you a better chance of gaining what you value, more than any other politician. You'd do well to learn who your friends are, rather than randomly bashing them, when they are trying to help you. Blaming Sanders supporters, such as myself, for Trump's win is devious, the stuff of fantasy and denial, an excuse for your own failures. You elected Trump just as much as I did. You wanto elect him again? Then keep doing what you're doing: attacking those who advocate for you.
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Goodness, could you possibly be any more condescending?
 
Mischief said:
Goodness, could you possibly be any more condescending?
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So, you cast aspersions on what you term "Bernie liberals" and believe you give no offense in doing so. You're very rude. It appears you can dish it out, but can't take it in return. You really don't know who your friends are.

To answer your question, yes, I can be more condescending, if you can. Wanna play?
 
I wonder if there are some unhelpful stereotypes of "Bernie liberals" in the Clinton camp. (And possibly unhelpful stereotypes of "Clinonistas" in the Sanders camp as well.)

However, in the two-party system, Bernie liberals and Clintonistas have to come together behind one candidate just like Republicans pinched their noses and supported the Trump menace. There are particular reasons why that didn't happen last year, but I don't see why it necessarily has to continue like that.
 
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Are Sanders and Clinton that relevant any more in the context of a possible future President? Clinton is a somewhat bitter two time loser that couldn't beat a generally acknowledged bad Republican candidate. And Sanders may just be too old. I hope someone else breaks thought at some point.

US Presidential Election 2020 Winner Betting Odds | Politics

(I realize there are various points in this debate that go deeper than the specific candidates and would still be relevant even if they were not involved any more.)
 
Jamie in Chile said:
And Sanders may just be too old.
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Your objection to his years is based on what? Your youth? Or your bigotry? Some hate men. Others hate gays. Some hate Muslims. Some hate immigrants. Others hate the mature. It's all bigotry. It's all based on hatred and fear. There is no reason for any of it. If he's elected, he'll just be setting a new record.
 
This thread is currently a clusterfvck of argument that I don't want to entangle myself too far in because a lot of it seems to be personal spats, but I just want to say two things:
  1. The Democratic Party is a right-wing party, it is responsible for its own downfall and you'll never see me supporting it without necessity and bile in my throat.
  2. Bernie Sanders, or other perceived far-left politicians, are not a perfect answer to the faults of the Democratic Party, and don't really need to be defended.
Usually it just tends to be a choice between the thing that will destroy us or the thing that will extend our lives a few more years so hopefully something will be fixed.

Also, anyone who thinks Trump is in the remotest way a better alternative to Clinton, even in a world where every negative thing or conspiracy about her is true, is lying to themselves.
 
FortyTwo said:
This thread is currently a clusterfvck of argument that I don't want to entangle myself too far in because a lot of it seems to be personal spats, but I just want to say two things:
  1. The Democratic Party is a right-wing party, it is responsible for its own downfall and you'll never see me supporting it without necessity and bile in my throat.
  2. Bernie Sanders, or other perceived far-left politicians, are not a perfect answer to the faults of the Democratic Party, and don't really need to be defended.
Usually it just tends to be a choice between the thing that will destroy us or the thing that will extend our lives a few more years so hopefully something will be fixed.

Also, anyone who thinks Trump is in the remotest way a better alternative to Clinton, even in a world where every negative thing or conspiracy about her is true, is lying to themselves.
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To perceive Sen. Sanders as far-left is a mistake. If you can see beyond the D.C. beltway, he is actually much closer to center than most American politicians today. Clinton, Obama, Trump, Cruz, Pelosi, McConnell, etc. are unusually far-right leaning. Their views are extreme. To take today's American political landscape as "normal" ignores the larger, historical picture, and to use it as a template for assessing political philosophy gives a very lopsided view. Abraham Lincoln was actually more left-leaning than Sanders or was FDR, but even Lincoln was not the extremist most D.C.ers are today.

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The problem with Sanders is that he's a typical politician, all talk and no action. He's been in politics for what 30 or 40 years now and what has he done? His accomplishments should fill a book but he's done practically nothing. He's saying what he thinks people want to hear, with nothing to show it's more than pie in the sky political promises.
 
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