NSFW THE TRUMPOCALYPSE

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Black lives matter is not racist, because it is specifically pertaining to the fact that many people of African descent have the problem of being treated in a dehumanising way which can sometimes result in brutality or violence at the hand of people who believe that people who are not white are inferior.

It does not mean that 1) White people do not experience police violence or 2) White people do not experience economic oppression at the hands of the oligarchy or 3) Other groups of indigenous people do not experience similar things

It is a movement aimed at a particular problem. I dont see how that is "racist". If white people are so concerned about white lives they should campaign/mobilise and win back America from the 1% for all citizens. And all other countries afflicted with this problem need to do the same.
 
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beancounter said:
I'm not talking about two separate terms that mean the same thing. It's an over simplification of the issue, and essentially a straw man.
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It's not a straw man to point out that context is important. And it's an over-simplification of the issue to "simply [base it] on language definitions".
 
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KLS52 said:
Most of the RL people I know who voted for Trump did so because they hate Hillary and think she is a crooked evil person. :ignore:
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I didn't realise you knew so many white supremacists. That's a joke btw.;)

So it was specifically HC that they hated, not the Democratic party? Do you think the people you know would have voted for Joe Biden?

After the result I saw a man being interviewed and he said he was one of the many Democrats who *knew* Hillary wouldn't win. He said he had begged Joe Biden to run instead.
 
I like Joe a lot, but he's prone to self aggrandizement.

He's run for the presidency a number of times, and has never gotten anywhere close. I think he tends to conveniently forget that.
 
BTW, could the people who want to re-litigate the election do so in a thread for that purpose? I believe such a thread already exists.
 
I would tend to agree with FortyTwo and Mischief on the black lives matter debate. I think whether or not it should be black or all lives is an interesting discussion I suppose but it’s not where the real focus should be. The focus should be on reducing and eventually eliminating racial discrimination against blacks. However if someone says it should be all lives matter I wouldn’t exactly disagree with that or say it’s wrong, but debating that shouldn't be the main focus of our energy.

I think Mischief’s post 476 is very good, very well put, although perhaps just because it agrees with my opinion to an extent!

I think Callie girl’s post 480 is good as well, well put again, I think it’s come to a question of how to react. As much as we are tempted to disrespect a Trump supporter and cut them off, is it productive to do so, or should we have a helpful and polite dialogue.
 
I don't want to underplay the risk of Trump himself as a man, however. A reading of history suggests that this has the potential to get very ugly. There are parallels with the nazis coming to power not to be over dramatic but you just never know what might happen. At least Trump doesn't seem to be planning on invading Russia.

However I'd say there is a better than 50/50 chance that a Trump presidency will mean the country not moving forward rather than going back, that he'll be kept in check by others, and bumble along and not be as bad as some think.

However there is also a strong risk of absolute disaster. When you get urgent national security issues congress can get bypassed. The team that Trump has put together being in control being in the situation room to deal with a report of possible nuclear threat, or a national disaster, or an economic crisis, or some mass national riots or some other completely unexpected mess up. Things can get out of control pretty fast. It's pretty obvious that some of Trump's team are really bad people who given the chance could do some pretty bad and stupid things. It's to be hoped that the intelligence agencies, military and others are prepared to have a strong voice to resist stupidities if necessary.

By the way, I have never lived in the US and I'm not American although I've visited there a number of times, but most of my opinions are drawn from TV and internet, so others may be closer to certain issues just to keep that in mind.

Someone needs to get in control of Trump's twitter account. The tweet "The United States must greatly strengthen and expand its nuclear capability until such time as the world comes to its senses regarding nukes" is the tweet of a child-like mind. There are so many things wrong with it. His team needs to come up with a review process before publication, or get him to stop using twitter. I also think the owner of twitter could perhaps wade in and suggest that twitter is not really for this kind of thing. Donald Trump on twitter is dangerous.
 
I think he's drawing a lot of inspiration from Ronald Reagan with his nuclear saber-rattling. Reagan is famous for making a lot of speeches condemning the Soviet Union for being armed with nukes while refusing to dismantle the US's own nuclear arsenal. He expected unilateral disarmament from the Russians. One of the major demands of the 1980's era anti-nuclear movement was that WE in the West should disarm, too.
 
Jamie in Chile said:
I would tend to agree with FortyTwo and Mischief on the black lives matter debate. I think whether or not it should be black or all lives is an interesting discussion I suppose but it’s not where the real focus should be. The focus should be on reducing and eventually eliminating racial discrimination against blacks. However if someone says it should be all lives matter I wouldn’t exactly disagree with that or say it’s wrong, but debating that shouldn't be the main focus of our energy.
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This exactly. All lives do matter, but the issue here is that the inclusion of black lives into that statement isn't implicit to a LOT of people. Racism runs rampant in our government, our police forces, and our society in general, and does a lot of tangible harm. Saying something as obvious as "all lives matter" in response to an actual societal concern about a specific population of peoples' lives being undervalued to the point of their casual murder being swept under the rug isn't helpful.

I think Callie girl’s post 480 is good as well, well put again, I think it’s come to a question of how to react. As much as we are tempted to disrespect a Trump supporter and cut them off, is it productive to do so, or should we have a helpful and polite dialogue.
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This is one of those things where, honestly, it's going to be situational. Some people, even people with disturbing beliefs, are open to debate and can have their minds changed. Generally these are people who are ignorant and just don't have their facts straight yet, or haven't bothered to empathize beyond their immediate experiences. These are not the people the Screaming Cheeto tends to attract, though, and positive experiences with his supporters will be few and far between in this coming term I think. Maybe the ones who were ignorant enough to think voting for him was a good idea, and now realize that he's an absolute nightmare. Their minds might be changed. I'm not going to forgive them, nor do I think anyone else should - actions have consequences and they need to be felt - but they're not impossible to work with.

Many, however, are people with dormant (or open) white supremacist and other nasty views who are absolutely taking Clump's win as a sign that their disgusting philosophies are in style. These people cannot be allowed to get a pass.

This is why I have a really hard time giving his voters the benefit of the doubt, because many of them are people like this. Engaging them in a friendly dialogue is just going to validate their beliefs, even if they're being "disagreed" with. These people need to be shut down immediately through whatever means necessary (and I do mean whatever means necessary).

Consider that 'alt-right' scumbags questioning the personhood of minority groups are actually getting airtime now. They're having their beliefs discussed like it's just another politics as usual question about the budget or something. If we're going to remain something even slightly resembling an attempt at a free country, that cannot stand. They cannot be given the time of day. Whether the response is to cut off their means to preach their hate, challenging any and all legislation they propose to give them even more legal loopholes to mistreat and erase minorities, or, you know, just good old fashioned 'beating up nazis,' there needs to be a response to that ****, without hesitation.

Jamie in Chile said:
I don't want to underplay the risk of Trump himself as a man, however. A reading of history suggests that this has the potential to get very ugly. There are parallels with the nazis coming to power not to be over dramatic but you just never know what might happen. At least Trump doesn't seem to be planning on invading Russia.

However I'd say there is a better than 50/50 chance that a Trump presidency will mean the country not moving forward rather than going back, that he'll be kept in check by others, and bumble along and not be as bad as some think.
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This is an optimistic way of looking at it, but I think it's a bit late for that. This is already getting ugly, and we're already moving backwards. He's not even in office yet.

However there is also a strong risk of absolute disaster. When you get urgent national security issues congress can get bypassed. The team that Trump has put together being in control being in the situation room to deal with a report of possible nuclear threat, or a national disaster, or an economic crisis, or some mass national riots or some other completely unexpected mess up. Things can get out of control pretty fast. It's pretty obvious that some of Trump's team are really bad people who given the chance could do some pretty bad and stupid things. It's to be hoped that the intelligence agencies, military and others are prepared to have a strong voice to resist stupidities if necessary.
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It's bad, and it will get out of control. The question is whether or not the checks and balances on him will be enough, given that, as you said, he's surrounded himself with people who either support him fully or know how to use him to accomplish their own evil ****.

By the way, I have never lived in the US and I'm not American although I've visited there a number of times, but most of my opinions are drawn from TV and internet, so others may be closer to certain issues just to keep that in mind.
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That's fair. I mean, I talk about Brexit despite never having actually set foot across the pond. :P

Someone needs to get in control of Trump's twitter account. The tweet "The United States must greatly strengthen and expand its nuclear capability until such time as the world comes to its senses regarding nukes" is the tweet of a child-like mind. There are so many things wrong with it. His team needs to come up with a review process before publication, or get him to stop using twitter. I also think the owner of twitter could perhaps wade in and suggest that twitter is not really for this kind of thing. Donald Trump on twitter is dangerous.
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Donald Trump period is dangerous. I might be in the minority of people who thinks that if this is really going to go ahead, he shouldn't stop using twitter. This is the closest we've ever gotten to the garbage stream of consciousness of a garbage demagogue in power. It can and should be used against him, because he has no self control. Taking it away from him will just mean we can't see what's going on in his ugly little head as much, which isn't exactly reassuring.
 
What I've been thinking is that the Democrats should be worried if Trump isn't a disaster. If he is this popular with some American people with his trolling and clownish behaviour, just imagine how popular he will be if he actually manages to fulfil even one of his promises.
 
Moll Flanders said:
What I've been thinking is that the Democrats should be worried if Trump isn't a disaster. If he is this popular with some American people with his trolling and clownish behaviour, just imagine how popular he will be if he actually manages to fulfil even one of his promises.
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Oh, we're definitely going to have to deal with that. He's going to be a fairly successful president for however long his term/the Earth lasts. He's surrounded by people who are intent on making his insidious goals happen when possible, so there'll be much rejoicing from his followers. The issue will be that his goals make no sense and will get people killed, as well as push the world that much closer to complete political collapse.
 
Amy SF said:
Yes, President Bernie Sanders would have been nice, but once Hillary won the nomination, she should have gotten more support on the left than she did get.
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Hillary Clinton should have earned the support of more of the left. She failed to.
 
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