Vegan food that resembles traditional food.

[ewomack]

Hello. As I said in another thread, I recently visited a "Vegan Burger Joint" that serves vegan "burgers" that pretty much look and taste like the "real thing." Its decor even reflected a typical "burger place," complete with burgers wrapped in thin wax paper, served in baskets overflowing with fries, and malts in tall traditional glasses. Apart from the lack of meat and dairy, it was truly a "burger joint."

The experience evoked memories of someone I once knew who absolutely hated vegan food that resembled traditionally meat-based food. He didn't like vegan hot dogs, burger patties, fake chicken nuggets, meatless crumbles, etc. He believed that he gave up that kind of food and its traditional presentation formats for a reason. He preferred vegan meals that in no way resembled traditional meat-laden food. He found the meat substitutes "derivative" and seemed to think that people who ate them didn't show enough commitment to truly changing their diets and habits. Of course, I argued that many people use these "substitutes" for transition purposes and without them some people would never consider going meatless. I started out that way myself. I bought veggie burgers and hot dogs. I did also eat vegan Indian and Thai food, but only in restaurants. At home I ate the "fake meat stuff." He conceded that somewhat, but he thought that "truly committed" people would, and should, gradually give such things up for "real vegan food" that embraced none of the traditional meat-eating forms and atmosphere.

The "burger joint" mentioned above also had online reviews containing claims like "even non-vegans will love it" and "I went there with my non-vegan friends and everyone loved it." After my experience there, were someone to hand me one of this restaurant's burgers out of context, I would have doubts that it was truly vegan. The experience reminded me so much of the "burger joints" of my youth that I would probably believe that I was eating meat again. Then I wondered if that was a good or a bad thing? I thought back to the person I knew who hated such "fake meat food" and I thought "was he right?" Should I embrace such "bridge food?" Am I unconsciously perpetuating a meat eating culture and ethos by embracing and consuming such food in traditionally meat-eating environments?

My initial feeling is no. The entire point is that no meat was consumed, despite how it was dressed up or presented. No cows or chickens were harmed. No slaughterhouses were required. No blood was spilled. And I still ate great food that, honestly, had a nostalgic element to it for me. I haven't eaten in a "burger joint" type place in years. I also cannot consume dairy malts for digestive reasons and this restaurant's vegan malts tasted pretty close to what I remembered real malts tasting like. I enjoyed the experience. I will likely go back and try more of their food. Plus, restaurants like this seem to be proliferating in the past few years. Vegan restaurants that imitate traditionally meat-based foods seem to have almost become trendy. Many seem quite successful. I do also wonder how healthy such food actually is, since veganism doesn't automatically imply or necessitate "healthy."

Do you think this all represents a good trend? A bad trend? Do you feel that vegan "meat substitutes" somehow compromise the spirit or intent of veganism? Could such "border food" contain the implicit risk of contributing to people converting back to meat eating again? I would be curious to hear what others think.

 

[Brian W]

Could such "border food" contain the implicit risk of contributing to people converting back to meat eating again?

On the contrary. It gives us something nice to eat during those difficult times when we crave something that we used to enjoy. It's a nice safety net. This person that you know seems to be more concerned with avoiding the taste of meat than with the welfare of animals. I know that no matter how strong my commitment is, I might never be totally free from longings for animal foods. This is nothing to do with attitude and is totally normal. If it wasn't for fake meat, I would probably given up entirely on trying to sustain a plant-based diet because I genuinely cannot function that way.

 

[silva]

This isn't limited to 'transitional' foods. It's food. It isn't made from animal products, it isn't whole plant food, it isn't gluten free.....It meets every qualifier for vegan food.
Why do you think meat eaters should have the upper hand on how they form their foods? You don't cut apart a cow and get a burger. Only difference in fries is the oil, and shakes are made the same regardless of they type of milk used

People who have NEVER had animal products eat foods like these. It's called having a choice.
When I first went veg I avoided things that resembled meat out of an attitude as you state, but the more comfortable I became the more I found I loved having different foods including those that resembled foods in my past. I frequently make all kinds of seitan and would love to have a fast food joint that served foods like this.

I'm really pretty sick of folks insinuating being vegan means avoiding processed foods.\

I wish they'd get trendy where I live! I don't ever want to go to a 'health food' restaurant again--that i can do on my own, without cilantro or avocado

 

[Lou]

I would be curious to hear what others think.

You made a lot of good points.

When I started transitioning to being vegan things were a lot different. No Beyond or impossible products. Not so many choices as far as Fake Meats.

Mostly I cooked for myself - and at home. I mostly ate meals that were Non-traditional. Instead of eating dishes that divided the plate into triangles (meat/green vegetable/starch) I explored food that was layered. Sauce over pasta. Stir fry over rice. And stuff you put in bowls. Stews, soups, chili.

But even back then I bought Boca burgers, frozen French fries, and made "milk" shakes.

Although my diet now is mostly Non-Processed, I still enjoy trying out whatever new processed foods come out.

In fact, I consider it sort of a "vegan-duty". As a vegan I feel it's necessary to show support for the non-meat industry. I don't ever go to Taco Bell, but when they added some vegan meals I went there to try them out. Not just out of curiosity but I wanted to let Taco Bell Corp know that I supported their attempts. Tried out the MacPlant for the same reason. (and it was good). And I still regularly go to BK for Whopper Wednesday and get a $3 Impossible Whopper.

 

[Lou]

Vegan restaurants that imitate traditionally meat-based foods seem to have almost become trendy. Many seem quite successful. I do also wonder how healthy such food actually is, since veganism doesn't automatically imply or necessitate "healthy."

Do you think this all represents a good trend? A bad trend? Do you feel that vegan "meat substitutes" somehow compromise the spirit or intent of veganism? Could such "border food" contain the implicit risk of contributing to people converting back to meat eating again? I would be curious to hear what others think.

maybe in some places vegan is becoming trendy. I don't particularly like that idea but....
Being for years vegans and vegetarians were considered kooky - especially on TV and in the movies - if they are not seen as cool, I see that as almost a payback for all the years they were portrayed as kooky. Although in some circles trendy is considered bad, too.

And if it's trendy - does that automatically imply a temporary-ness.

There are people here and that I have met IRL that consider meat subs as sort of bad for various reasons. But I think you have it right. When it comes down to it the only question is - does it harm animals?

 

[Emma JC]

I agree that there is no "carnivore" ownership of shapes or words like milk and burgers etc.

The only reason I don't eat more of them is for health reasons, otherwise I would likely eat them daily.

Emma JC
Find your vegan soulmate or just a friend. www.spiritualmatchmaking.com

 

[Mufflon]

The experience evoked memories of someone I once knew who absolutely hated vegan food that resembled traditionally meat-based food. He didn't like vegan hot dogs, burger patties, fake chicken nuggets, meatless crumbles, etc. He believed that he gave up that kind of food and its traditional presentation formats for a reason.

Well - what do people want? More people not eating animal derived foods or sticking to some principles meat eaters can't relate to?

 

[Rainbow]

Very interesting post and a very valid point, I have asked myself similar questions actually!

I think it is a good thing to have some alternatives although some things taste really weird (like the vegan chorizo)
I bought the impossible burger patties from the supermarket and when I saw the 'blood' (ie beetroot juice) ooze out, I almost couldn't cook it!!
It tasted decent but I haven't bought it since. I'm all for making/eating substitutes but I thought that went too far.

In the end, I try to simplify things and remind myself we need to enjoy this life as much as possible so...
If no animals have been hurt, killed, or exploited in the process then go for it

 

[moshpeter]

Your experience at the vegan burger joint resonates with me. I once had a similar debate with a friend who was skeptical about vegan substitutes. But hey, sometimes those "bridge foods" can make the transition to a plant-based diet easier.

 

[silva]

Your experience at the vegan burger joint resonates with me. I once had a similar debate with a friend who was skeptical about vegan substitutes. But hey, sometimes those "bridge foods" can make the transition to a plant-based diet easier.

"bridge foods"? You mean like going from omni to whole plant foods? I guess

 

[Mufflon]

The term "bridge foods" isn't IMO a very helpful one. It gives the impression of "only a vegan not eating these foods is a real vegan".

Not helpful. On the contrary.

 

[Lou]

The term "bridge foods" isn't IMO a very helpful one. It gives the impression of "only a vegan not eating these foods is a real vegan".

Not helpful. On the contrary.

I didn't think that.

 

[Lou]

So... I'm not sure I have ever used the term bridge food. Not ever sure I've seen it used before.
But I think @ewomack adequately explains what he means by it.

I guess it's the kinds of foods that a transitioning vegan would seek out in order to help with the transition. But in my mind that implies one would stop eating those foods when they finished the transition. Like a stepping stone.

I don't think that needs to be the case.

I know there are vegans here in the forum that don't want to eat "bridge foods" because they remind them of non-vegan foods. And I know there are other vegans who like "bridge foods" for just that reason. And then there are people like me who continue to eat bridge foods because of their convenience or nostalgia (comfort foods).

The other point that the OP made that I liked is that "Bridge foods" are the types of foods you could feed to non-vegans so that we can still socialize with non-vegans and maybe help them get over the idea that meat must be eaten at every meal.

So the OP was asking about what other foods could be bridge foods besides burgers.
I think Italian food and Mexican food are maybe the most obvious choices. There is my favorite choice: the vegetarian burrito without cheese. You can order one of these at any restaurant. Or make them at home. At home it's pretty easy to have a taco night with plant based choices. Even if no one planned for a vegan if it's one of those build your own tacos - you can easily make a vegan taco. Heck, Taco Bell now has a vegan section to their menu.

Italian food might be a little harder or more constricted. But if you have a sauce that is vegan you got it covered.

 

[silva]

Vegan processed foods could be termed 'transition foods' if someone is going from omnivore to WFPB, but why call them that if you just want to be vegan, and not completely changing your diet for the health aspect?
Honestly, when I first quit animal products I didn't want anything that seemed to resemble them in any way, but after maybe the first year, I found myself loving the Morningstar and vegan cheeses and stuff. They aren't 'transition foods', they're foods!
I make seitan and cheese stuffs because its cooking, and I like it. I do feel it's a shame we don't have more acceptable words that don't imply faux

 

[ewomack]

The timing of this thread coming back to life somewhat is interesting, because I'm going to the same "burger joint" that inspired it next weekend with some vegan/vegetarian friends. I haven't returned since that post above, so I'm curious what my reaction will be the second time around. In the interim, I've eaten quite a bit of vegan food that resembles traditional meat-based food.

The term "bridge food" only came up in the original post because I couldn't think of a phrase for such foods in that particular context. The term was meant contextually only. Of course anyone can eat such foods at any time they want. And of course it's food. For me, fake burgers, hot dogs, etc., did provide a "bridge" for me to try more non-meat foods when I wasn't completely open to them. They provided a "bridge" for me to start cutting down on, and finally eliminating, meat back when I still had doubts that giving up meat was "healthy." Without them, and without various people introducing me to meatless Indian, Thai, Japanese, Ethiopian, and other types of food, my very traditional meat-eating upbringing would have been difficult to break.

My family still eats meat regularly, probably still with every meal. I did bring a "Tofurkey roast" to Thanksgiving once years ago. Only one person tried it, but they said it was "pretty good." No one else seemed to want to even notice it. I didn't force it on anyone, I just put it on the table and let people do what they wanted with it. I ended up bringing most of it back home. Someone did say they were surprised at how it looked, they thought it would look like a turkey with legs, etc., like something one would see on a sitcom. I honestly don't think anyone in my family sees anything wrong, or even has a concept of how there could ever be anything wrong, with eating meat. I've known a lot of people like that. They're not bad people, It's just very deeply ingrained and conditioned behavior. Psychology also plays a massive role. As such, I also think that "fake meat" is something incomprehensible to them, even as a concept. So, for them, and many others, it wouldn't serve as a "bridge food" at all. Overcoming this baggage took quite an effort. It would have been much easier to just keep eating meat. I now no longer consider "fake meat" "bridge food" because it's now part of my diet. If someone in my family gave it a chance, it would, temporarily, serve as "bridge food" for them. Assuming they made the transition, it would cease being "bridge food" for them and hopefully become something they ate regularly. I don't see that happening, unfortunately.

As for the "burger joints," the options seem to only increase. Now just about any restuarant that my meat-eating family would want to eat at also has a vegan option, usually an "Impossible Burger" or a "Beyond Burger." I eat regularly at about 3 or 4 different vegan "burger joints." I hope they last, because I do think a part of me has some deep nostalgia for eating hamburger-shaped things, but at this point actually eating a real beef patty sounds unappealing. So, though I don't think such simulated foods pose a danger for me, I do wonder if a dependence on them could cause someone to transition back to meat if they vanished as a non-meat resource. Say all of the "Impossible Burgers" and "Beyond Burgers" ceased to exist. Would people seek out other non-meat food? Or would it be easier to just go back to meat? It would vary person to person, of course, but this remains the question for me about whether such food, served in "burger joint" style, actually helps people transition to a non-meat diet or whether it merely provides a crutch? I don't know. It will hopefully remain a merely hypothetical question. I still welcome the trend, in any case.

 

[silva]

As for the "burger joints," the options seem to only increase. Now just about any restuarant that my meat-eating family would want to eat at also has a vegan option, usually an "Impossible Burger" or a "Beyond Burger." I eat regularly at about 3 or 4 different vegan "burger joints." I hope they last, because I do think a part of me has some deep nostalgia for eating hamburger-shaped things, but at this point actually eating a real beef patty sounds unappealing. So, though I don't think such simulated foods pose a danger for me, I do wonder if a dependence on them could cause someone to transition back to meat if they vanished as a non-meat resource. Say all of the "Impossible Burgers" and "Beyond Burgers" ceased to exist. Would people seek out other non-meat food? Or would it be easier to just go back to meat? It would vary person to person, of course, but this remains the question for me about whether such food, served in "burger joint" style, actually helps people transition to a non-meat diet or whether it merely provides a crutch? I don't know. It will hopefully remain a merely hypothetical question. I still welcome the trend, in any case.

When I first went vegan I avoided all things that resembled meat. I still remember going to Whole Foods with my son and getting a seitan "beef" and broccoli and giving it to my son. It was like a year before I had an interest in foods I used to eat.
Beyond and Impossible are processed foods, but it really easy to make yourself. I've been making foods with vital wheat gluten and soy that resemble the texture and taste of foods from animals for years. Beyond Sausage is the one thing that is better than any I make

We only call them meat subs because meat is typical. I think they'd be around even if meat were never eaten! Look at all the processed foods that have no resemble to 'true' foods, but a thing by themselves. We don't have accepted words to give them their own label.

I've known more than one omnivore to say they usually like Beyond or Impossible burgers to meat burgers.
When discussing recipes and I talk about what I would use instead of meat, usually beans, people will come up to me and say they made it that way and liked it. I like vegan food to just be food

 

[Lou]

When I first went vegan I avoided all things that resembled meat.

Wait! you aren't one of those Vegans who are confused by "cauliflower sheep".
"is it vegan if it looks like an animal?!"

 

[silva]

Wait! you aren't one of those Vegans who are confused by "cauliflower sheep".
"is it vegan if it looks like an animal?!"

No, but that seitan was more like beef strips than I'd ever expected-and at that time I still knew beef!
I don't anymore, but I sure love seitan shreds, deli slices, and even steaks. I made a fantastic pepperoni yesterday, shaved by my super food processor. My son who didn't like the meat pepperoni loves this one, cause it's not all oily and fatty

 

[moshpeter]

Your experience at the vegan burger joint resonates with me. I once had a similar debate with a friend who was skeptical about vegan substitutes. But hey, sometimes those "bridge foods" can make the transition to a plant-based diet easier.

Reminds me of the first time I tried https://www.therevolution.ie/ pizza – it tasted so delicious. It's all about enjoying delicious food guilt-free.

 

[ewomack]

The return "burger joint" visit last weekend went extremely well. It was just as good as I remembered it. This time, I also had one of their malts made with soy and coconut. It did not disappoint. Our friends had never been there and they raved about it. These types of restaurants have done a fantastic job of re-creating the food and atmosphere of a true "burger joint," but sans animal flesh. I don't see why anyone would need to eat the real thing ever again. The only blocker must be psychological, probably triggered by the words "plant-based" on the door. Though unethical and not recommended, it would be interesting to see what would happen if someone secretly replaced all of the meat items in a real "burger joint" with plant-based substitutes. How many people would actually complain? I'm sure some people would, but I'm curious just how many. These "substitutes" taste a lot like I remember the real things tasting. I've heard other people say the same. I had a "double cheeseburger" and it tasted like a double cheeseburger. The "malt" tasted like a malt. The food cost maybe a little bit more, but not exorbitantly more, than meaty stuff. All this, but just tell a meat eater that it has no meat and they react to it like it's made of excrement. I don't get it.