Why do vegans in america eat honey and still call themselves vegan?

[Lou]

@SongHyeKyo

I believe you are correct, ovo-veg is the term used. Furthermore, we are not here to judge you for your flexi lifestyle. Although, this is strictly a vegan forum, but as long as you post within the guidelines of the forum and its vegan theme, you are as welcome here as much as anyone else.

I also agree with Lou, no one can be 100% vegan. It's a strange term to use with veganism. 100% could imply many things beyond even consuming animals. Maybe I have to be a 100% activist too, in order to be vegan. It's ridiculous, is it not? Well so is being 100% vegan. I kill bacteria every time I wash my hands. I'm sure I've stepped on lots of bugs too. I honestly don't think vegans claim to be 100 percent. It's not a claim I've heard any vegans make.

In my humble opinion, the 100% thing is an outside argument, usually used to argue against veganism by non-vegans. The argument is "if you can't be 100% vegan then don't call yourself a vegan". It's as puerile as it gets. The argument is as I said, ridiculous, but people still use it.

Since I do still wear leather to ride motorcycle, I might fall into some strange non-vegan category among the militant vegans, myself. Do I care? I do not. I'm still a new enough vegan that I can still say it's transitional. I do my very best to do as much as the definition below states.

According to the Vegan Society:

Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.

The key words in this above are, "as far as possible and practical".


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Washing your hands and killing bacteria does not count. Bacteria are not animals.
Stepping on bugs, or killing them on your windshield doesn't count either. It's not exploitative (or intentional).
The definition says "as far as possible and practical", not "at all costs".

I also don't believe new vegans need to throw away apparel, cosmetics, or food they bought before. That doesn't do anyone any good. Although a good argument can be made for donating.

The "as far as possible and practical" is a great line. I think it could be used to make the 100% vegan claim. "I'm as vegan as possible or practical". But then who defines what is possible and practical. IMHO, that is up to each every vegan.

the "seeks to exclude " is also an important part. That speaks to intent. That is why I say if a person wants to call himself a vegan, he (or she) can call himself a vegan.

But you can't call a recipe that includes chicken vegan. The definition has some flexibility, it can bend up to a point. but it does have a breaking point.

I'm still a little foggy on all the types of vegetarians. but I'm pretty sure that ovo - vegetarians eat eggs but not milk or meat. But I don't understand ova -vegetarians or lacto-vegetarians for that matter. Isn't it easier to exclude milk and/or eggs than it is to exclude meat? But there isn't a word for that.

BTW, I love that the best definition of a flexitarian is a haiku

Eat food.
Not too much.
Mostly plants.

When your diet can be explained in less than ten words you are doing something right.

 

[Forest Nymph]

My parents never had any hens, but I do recall them telling me about WW2 rationing of food in GB, including eggs.

As far as backyard eggs being less cruel and/or exploited, that may very well be true for the egg layer, but it doesn't change the fact that eating the egg still kills a potential life.

Keeping bees is no different. In harvesting the honey, the bees are robbed of their hard work and food supply for the winter months and given cheap sugars, like high fructose corn syrup to live on. It goes against the vegan philosophy the same as stealing an animal's eggs. What right do we have to take their eggs or honey? This is the point in question for vegans.

It also doesn't negate the fact that eggs are loaded with cholesterol, but that's another thread/subject.


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Actually you're stereotyping bee-keeping by commercial standards. While you'll hear no argument from me that commercial honey is terrible, what you're describing doesn't apply to small-scale local bee keeping, particularly when the person does it to preserve honey bee populations so we all don't literally die from extinction of pollinators.

I'm honestly much more concerned about people using Round Up on their decorative flowers than I am on small-scale/local bee keeping.

https://www.elephantjournal.com/2012/01/beekeeping-and-the-ethical-vegan-will-curley/

 

[Forest Nymph]

I have met lots of vegans who eat things I know are not vegan. Like when they eat popcorn slathered in butter that isn’t vegan. I saw a vegan video that says it’s ok to eat bivalves. Honestly it’s not a grey area honey isn’t vegan eating bivalves isn’t vegan. I don’t know

Bivalves likely aren't sentient they don't have brains or central nervous systems. There are insects, like bees, who are more intelligent than bivalves. It's basic college biology that there are "cross-over" animals from plants early in evolution. Bivalves are part of that, though I wouldn't extend it to shrimp or lobsters or crabs for obvious reasons.

That isn't a personal defense of eating bivalves, but an explanation on why people believe it's ethical, much more ethical than eating any sort of farmed animal or fish, who are of a completely different family of animals.

 

[VeggieTerrian]

The honey thing is where one says, Where do we draw the line? Do you remove all pests in your home/do you kill them or relocate them? Do you consider insects? Do you kill the ants in your yard? Do you care about bugs/insects? If not why would someone exclude honey?If they are vegan for ethical reasons? If you kill a roach, or a spider can you call yourself vegan?

 

[SapphireLightning]

I have met quite a few vegans in america, and ALL of them so far have said that they eat honey..
Some also eat eggs from chickens they know are living good - this is still not vegan though..

Is there something i'm missing here about being vegan in america?

That is really odd. The only "vegans" I have met that thought that honey was vegan have been from the UK, Eire & mainland Europe. Maybe it is a regional thing? Like "vegans" in California tend to think honey is vegan more often than those in New England... Then again, the only ones of these "vegans" I met were online, and may have just been new to it. Final thoughts, regardless of location, the vast majority I meet realize that honey is not vegan.

 

[SapphireLightning]

"as far as possible and practical", not "at all costs".

This might be a nit-pick, but it does really change the meaning: It is "practicable" not "practical". So "as far as possible and practicable", which is less loosy-goosy than "practical" there which I agree with. If it really was up to practicality and not practicability then one could just be like "Well it is impractical for me to find a proper place to eat, so might as well order a burger"...

 

[TofuRobot]

This might be a nit-pick, but it does really change the meaning: It is "practicable" not "practical". So "as far as possible and practicable", which is less loosy-goosy than "practical" there which I agree with. If it really was up to practicality and not practicability then one could just be like "Well it is impractical for me to find a proper place to eat, so might as well order a burger"...

It's not nit-picky. They are 2 different words. Worth it to point out the difference.

 

[Lou]

This might be a nit-pick, but it does really change the meaning: It is "practicable" not "practical". So "as far as possible and practicable", which is less loosy-goosy than "practical" there which I agree with. If it really was up to practicality and not practicability then one could just be like "Well it is impractical for me to find a proper place to eat, so might as well order a burger"...

Huh. never noticed those extra letters before. but I don't really see how it makes much of a difference.

 

[TofuRobot]

Huh. never noticed those extra letters before. but I don't really see how it makes much of a difference.

"practical refers to something that is effective, useful, or easy to use,practicable means “something that is or could be done."

Pesky definitions.

 

[Lou]

Practical: there are no practical alternatives: feasible, practicable, realistic, viable, workable, possible, reasonable, sensible; informal doable.
Practicable: what we need is a practicable solution: realistic, feasible, possible, within the bounds/realms of possibility, viable, reasonable, sensible, workable, achievable; informal doable.

Seems to make little difference. But I get your drift.

 

[Nekodaiden]

That is really odd. The only "vegans" I have met that thought that honey was vegan have been from the UK, Eire & mainland Europe. Maybe it is a regional thing? Like "vegans" in California tend to think honey is vegan more often than those in New England... Then again, the only ones of these "vegans" I met were online, and may have just been new to it. Final thoughts, regardless of location, the vast majority I meet realize that honey is not vegan.

Over the years, honey has been added and subtracted from the definition of Vegan by the UK vegan society. That is likely the reason some people (older vegans/their children) may consider it under the umbrella of veganism.

 

[TofuRobot]

The honey thing is where one says, Where do we draw the line? Do you remove all pests in your home/do you kill them or relocate them? Do you consider insects? Do you kill the ants in your yard? Do you care about bugs/insects? If not why would someone exclude honey?If they are vegan for ethical reasons? If you kill a roach, or a spider can you call yourself vegan?

Sorry but I don't see how there's any comparison to avoiding honey and having a pest infestation in your home. Does your home get infested with honey? I've been "avoiding" honey since long before I was vegan as I really have never liked honey. They often put honey in wheat bread and I've always hated the taste of that. Literally the only thing I have had difficulty with is the Gluten Free Norwegian Crisp Bread Cracker's at Trader Joe's which I used to LOVE and just happened to have honey in it that I couldn't taste. I LOVED those crackers. But you know what - I can just as equally go to Whole Foods and buy some Mary's Gone Crackers which are just as good (and equally expensive, lol) and don't have honey. But really, how difficult is it really to avoid honey? Those 2 things are the only things I come across regularly that have honey, but there is lots of bread that doesn't have it - my favorite being the Ezekiel bread. So avoiding honey is really a non-issue.

 

[Lou]

The honey thing is where one says, Where do we draw the line? Do you remove all pests in your home/do you kill them or relocate them? Do you consider insects? Do you kill the ants in your yard? Do you care about bugs/insects? If not why would someone exclude honey?If they are vegan for ethical reasons? If you kill a roach, or a spider can you call yourself vegan?

I think that honey is a grey area. But not for the reasons you have.

Remember the definition of veganism, which we have been throwing around here, uses the word "exploitation" not the word "kill". And also uses the words "seeks to exclude". And of course the words Possible and Practicable".

Honey bees are definitely being exploited for their honey. And it is very P&P to avoid honey. But the insects and vermin in the home are not being exploited. And it's debatable if it's practicable to not exterminate them.

It does get complicated and that is one of the reasons I think it is important that vegans don't just follow the rules but think for themselves.

 

[SapphireLightning]

But the insects and vermin in the home are not being exploited. And it's debatable if it's practicable to not exterminate them.

It does get complicated and that is one of the reasons I think it is important that vegans don't just follow the rules but think for themselves.

I would add to what Lou has said above that you also have the right to defend yourself against harm/disease/death. I would consider an infestation a serious threat to health. If a bear decided to track me, I would also go as far as I needed to to defend my life. These are very different from exploiting beings due to a very unnecessary palate preference. One is a very real defensive action against a real unprovoked threat; the other involves going out of the way to cause harm usually for selfish (profits, palate etc) reasons.

 

[Lou]

@SapphireLightning
@VeggieTerrian

Ha! (Laughing at myself).
Even though I just said we have to think for ourselves and not blindly follow the rules, as far as vermin in the pantry, cockroaches in the baseboards, termites in the basement, bugs in the backyard, and even the bear that is after Sapphire, the "rules" pretty much cover that too.

Remember is says when "practicable" not "at all costs".

 

[TofuRobot]

These are very different from exploiting beings due to a very unnecessary palate preference.

And might I say, these "palate preferences" are beyond unnecessary, especially given the fact that palate preferences change! People seem to forget that. When you change the way you eat, the things you like to eat change. (Just made that up, though I kinda stole the form from Wayne Dyer )