I found this facebook post by Ginny Messina to be fascinating:
https://www.facebook.com/TheVeganRD/posts/769333483096871
https://www.facebook.com/TheVeganRD/posts/769333483096871
Animal Rights are oysters the new honey?
- Thread starter prioritarian
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beancounter
The Fire That Burns Within
Sentience is irrelevant.
It's very simple.
Oysters are animals. Veg*ns don't eat animals.
Why is it so hard for some people to understand that.
It's very simple.
Oysters are animals. Veg*ns don't eat animals.
Why is it so hard for some people to understand that.
^^^ Hmmm... I do think sentience is relevant. This is why I avoid eating animals or their bodily products: even if animals could be killed without causing them pain or fear, I cannot justify robbing them of the pleasurable experiences their lives have to offer them.
Okay- there is less evidence for sentience in bivalves than in most other animals. As I see it, here's the problem with trying to argue that bivalves are not sentient: humans as long ago as Rene Descartes have often argued that this, that, or another animal is not sentient, and then evidence came to light indicating that they were probably or certainly wrong. I'm thinking of fishes.
Fish brains are notably simpler than bird or mammal brains; consciousness (or sentience, I suppose) has long been thought to operate in the cerebral cortex- which birds and mammals have, but fishes don't. But I have seen fishes exhibit learned behavior, and can't imagine how they could ever do this if they were not sentient. I should think a fish would have to be aware if his/her surroundings, have a memory of what happened to them in a certain situation, and be able to have preferences or desires to act in a certain way, based on what they thought would happen if they did this rather than that, if they were to be able to learn anything.
Bivalves are innocuous little critters, just sitting there filtering stuff out of the water as it flows past them. Why not let them live?
Okay- there is less evidence for sentience in bivalves than in most other animals. As I see it, here's the problem with trying to argue that bivalves are not sentient: humans as long ago as Rene Descartes have often argued that this, that, or another animal is not sentient, and then evidence came to light indicating that they were probably or certainly wrong. I'm thinking of fishes.
Fish brains are notably simpler than bird or mammal brains; consciousness (or sentience, I suppose) has long been thought to operate in the cerebral cortex- which birds and mammals have, but fishes don't. But I have seen fishes exhibit learned behavior, and can't imagine how they could ever do this if they were not sentient. I should think a fish would have to be aware if his/her surroundings, have a memory of what happened to them in a certain situation, and be able to have preferences or desires to act in a certain way, based on what they thought would happen if they did this rather than that, if they were to be able to learn anything.
Bivalves are innocuous little critters, just sitting there filtering stuff out of the water as it flows past them. Why not let them live?
beancounter
The Fire That Burns Within
^^^
Sentience is irrelevant because it does not factor into why veg*ns chosen not to eat animals.
Whereas these pseudo veg*ns consider sentience to be a relevant litmus test in determining whether an animal is suitable for consumption.
Sentience is irrelevant because it does not factor into why veg*ns chosen not to eat animals.
Whereas these pseudo veg*ns consider sentience to be a relevant litmus test in determining whether an animal is suitable for consumption.
SummerRain
I dreamed that God would be forgiving.
Huh? I think it factors into why some vegans choose not to eat animals. If the question is "is it vegan" the answer is obviously "no". But if the question, like that in the FB page on the OP, is "is it ethical" than I think for a lot (but not all) vegans sentience is important/relevant. I care more about doing the right thing than fitting into the descriptive title of "vegan".
I'm willing to give oysters the benefit of the doubt until it's conclusively proven they aren't sentient. But I think sentience is important, I think it's wrong to cause suffering to others, and sentience is part of a creatures ability to suffer.
Exactly. Isn't that why vegans eat plants and not animals? Because plants aren't sentient while animals are? That's why I stopped eating animals, lol.
If the question is "is it vegan" the answer is obviously "no". But if the question, like that in the FB page on the OP, is "is it ethical" than I think for a lot (but not all) vegans sentience is important/relevant. I care more about doing the right thing than fitting into the descriptive title of "vegan".
I'm willing to give oysters the benefit of the doubt until it's conclusively proven they aren't sentient. But I think sentience is important, I think it's wrong to cause suffering to others, and sentience is part of a creatures ability to suffer.
Maybe some day oysters will be proven to be sentient, who knows?
beancounter
The Fire That Burns Within
If the question is "is it vegan" the answer is obviously "no". But if the question, like that in the FB page on the OP, is "is it ethical" than I think for a lot (but not all) vegans sentience is important/relevant. I care more about doing the right thing than fitting into the descriptive title of "vegan".
I'm willing to give oysters the benefit of the doubt until it's conclusively proven they aren't sentient. But I think sentience is important, I think it's wrong to cause suffering to others, and sentience is part of a creatures ability to suffer.
All creatures have a fundamental/intrinsic right to exist, whether they are sentient or not. Just because an animal lacks sentience, doesn't make it ethical to eat them.
And no, I don't believe that plants have that same right.
I don't see why an oyster's existence is different to any other species.
FortyTwo
Custom Title
These are the same sorts of people who would eat lab-grown meat and still try to call themselves vegan.
OP
OP
I am not a fan of lab grown meat for utilitarian ethical reasons (it's an environmental and resource-use abomination) but I would love to understand why you think meat grown in a bioreactor is any different from...say...kombucha.
OP
OP
Maybe some day plants will be prove to be sentient, who knows? (from a scientific perspective both are equally unlikely.)
I think my favorite comment was the person who pointed out that if we discover advanced alien life according to the Vegan Society (TM) Definition it would be completely vegan to eat these sentient beings.
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OP
OP
I believe that even inanimate objects can have intrinsic value! And in some cases an inanimate object might have more value than many beings.
OP
OP
With all due respect this is clearly not the case. For example, both Vegan Outreach and Vegan Action promote utilitarian veganism as opposed to Vegan Society deontic veganism. And while it often seems that utilitarian/welfare vegans are a minority online there are an awful lot of them involved in activism (which kind of makes sense if you think about it). In fact, virtually every major activist organization has utilitarian-focused campaigns (e.g. MFA, COK, FARM etc) even if some members are AR/Deontic vegans. And enviro-vegans are even more detached from AR-centric veganism. Paul Watson, for example, is not a fan of animal rights at all.
Omnis keep trying to prove plants are sentient to justify eating bacon lol
I think oysters have a better chance of being sentient than plants but I don't know everything
OP
OP
The same could be said about plants. In fact, from an aggregate utilitarian point of view one could argue that eating them causes less harm than eating many vegetable crops (which do involve the indirect deaths of far more sophisticated animals, including clearly sentient fish).
I don't eat oysters out of habit and concerns about large-scale aqua culture in estuaries. I also think oysters represent a marginal food source. We vegans and veganish types need to focuse on sustainable ethical foods that can feed *billions* (at least until we convince people to stop having so many @#$%ing babies).
OP
OP
FortyTwo
Custom Title
The concern over "sentience" (as if that is something that can be quantified in any meaningful way) is totally irrelevant.
Oysters are animals. Honey is an animal product. Vegans don't consume animal products. Thus, neither is vegan.
We could argue all day over exactly how ethical eating these foods is, but the point is, they're not vegan.
I suppose you could say that oysters are the new honey in that people misleadingly tiptoe around semantics to try and cram them into a vegan diet.
Oysters are animals. Honey is an animal product. Vegans don't consume animal products. Thus, neither is vegan.
We could argue all day over exactly how ethical eating these foods is, but the point is, they're not vegan.
I suppose you could say that oysters are the new honey in that people misleadingly tiptoe around semantics to try and cram them into a vegan diet.
SummerRain
I dreamed that God would be forgiving.
Why isn't that the point? I thought that was the point. The OP quotes a post where somebody asks if oysters could be included in an ethical diet, not a vegan diet. She (the person quoted) goes on to say "This writer suggests that they could be an option for people who insist that they can't be healthy on a vegan diet?" which clearly implies oysters aren't vegan (or even vegetarian for that matter).
I'm not trying to be annoying... I just don't get it. Why are some people so keen not to discuss ethics, and dismissing it as "irrelevant" when it's what the OP is about? Isn't that why most people are vegan in the first place?
That's interesting, I'd never thought about veganism like that (utilitarian/welfare vs AR/Deontic). I don't think I fit comfortably into either camp... it's an interesting topic though.
Ginny Messina says that, correct, but the article and writer she refers to (Diana Fleischman / Sentientist.org) invents new terms such as "ostrovegan" and "bivalvegan", and seems to suggest oysters and mussels should be categorised as a type of vegan food.
Also, the title of this thread - "are oysters the new honey?" seems to suggest oysters could be in the same category as honey, which some people insist is vegan.
Probably because oysters belong to the kingdom of animals, the same as all known sentient creatures.
