kibbleforlola
Lola Worshiper
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Isn't this very topic that led many of us to leave the forum that shall not be named? :/
Animal Rights are oysters the new honey?
- Thread starter prioritarian
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The writer seems to know some crazy *** vegans. 
The reasons presented for eating bi-valves are pretty weak. It's not as though bivalves will open up a huge number of new dining options, and the nutritional benefits can be found in any number of other foods. As for sentience, since I don't really know, I'd rather err on the side of caution. I don't particularly care what other people call themselves, but this vegan will not be adding bivalves to her diet anytime in the near future.
The reasons presented for eating bi-valves are pretty weak. It's not as though bivalves will open up a huge number of new dining options, and the nutritional benefits can be found in any number of other foods. As for sentience, since I don't really know, I'd rather err on the side of caution. I don't particularly care what other people call themselves, but this vegan will not be adding bivalves to her diet anytime in the near future.
beancounter
The Fire That Burns Within
And for some odd reason, these people always talk about oysters, but ignore clams and muscles.
Must be some sort of status symbol thing to eat oysters.
These folks want to "wear"the veg*n title, but don't want to follow it's primary tenet.
Must be some sort of status symbol thing to eat oysters.
These folks want to "wear"the veg*n title, but don't want to follow it's primary tenet.
OP
OP
Indian Summer, I'd never say to another vegan that their personal definition is wrong/flawed/incorrect. There are all sorts of vegans and, IMO, veganism is (should be?) a big tent.
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OP
OP
When I asked "Why?" I was referring to lab grown flesh, not oysters. I think there are some reasons to be cautious about large-scale oyster/mussel farming. As others have commented I also think it's one of those things that really has little impact on our overall ethical food choices.
OP
OP
Clams are not *sessile* and have intact sensory nerves (afferents) that connect to inter-connected central ganglia so they are potentially sentient. Mussels are a lot like oysters in that they are sessile and have no sensory apparatus.
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OP
OP
I agree with this. I think the evidence that bivalves are nutritionally *necessary* is incredibly weak. That being said these kind of issues end up being important due to the ethical symbolism. (honey has been a thing for decades now.)
beancounter
The Fire That Burns Within
Oysters, clams and muscles have one important thing in common. They are animals. That one factor trumps sentience.
You can't wiggle around that by using "big" words. Go ahead and eat oysters if that's your driving desire. (given how much effort you put into trying to convince others, it must be) ..and I bet you already do.
But you are not veg*n.
It doesn't seem like a "personal definition" once it's being campaigned for with articles and arguments with people on the Internet. I would think a personal definition would be somewhat less public than that.
I agree, but there are obviously limits. It's damaging to the movement / community if the definition of veganism itself is changed to accommodate an insignificant minority. People who identify as vegans have just one thing in common, namely their non-exploitation of animals. Take that away, and you take the community away as well. Not to mention the added confusion with product labelling, ordering food in restaurants and so on.
FortyTwo
Custom Title
I think this is why I'm being defensive about this being definitively non-vegan rather than trying to discuss the ethics.
kibbleforlola
Lola Worshiper
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Normally I'm all about grey areas and moral ambiguity, but this is pretty cut and dry.
Vegans don't eat animals.
Oysters are animals.
Ergo, vegans don't eat oysters.
Simple.
Vegans don't eat animals.
Oysters are animals.
Ergo, vegans don't eat oysters.
Simple.
FortyTwo
Custom Title
What does "all sorts of vegans" mean?
Well, there is the Spotted Northern Vegan, who eats certain kinds of honey.
And the rare Black-Tailed Southeastern Water Vegan, which flies across the sea looking for fish!
Of course, these are all variations upon the Common Vegan, which has no time for such ethical... divergence, if you will.
OP
OP
The UK vegan society definition speaks of cruelty and exploitation, not a single primary tenet. Moreover, it's an established fact that Vegan Action was formed due to divisions in the vegan community about the definition of vegan. I make no secret that I'm firmly in the Vegan Action/Outreach camp when it comes to defining veganism. And if this makes me "non-vegan" according to "beancounter" and the UK vegan society then fine/whatever/shrugs.
Huh?
Whatever gave you the idea that I want to eat oysters. I found them to be repulsive even when I was an omnivore (~30 years ago). And besides I don't need to eat oysters (yuck) to be non-vegan. I feed a cat pills in ground up 100% animal flesh every day. (It's the only way I can get her to take medication without a huge fight.)
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OP
OP
What does "all sorts of vegans" mean?
There are vegans like me who greatly emphasize suffering and exploitation reduction (when it comes to veganism it's honestly the only thing I care about). There are also vegans who greatly emphasize abolition of exploitation and/or a more deontic/dogmatic definition of veganism. And then there are far more vegans who fall somewhere in between these two ethical positions.
There are also green vegans of a variety of persuasions, spiritual/religious vegans, political vegans, and even *health* vegans. (Although most of these vegans also have some affinity to the above more ethical positions.)
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OP
OP
I 100% agree about food and restaurant labelling. However, I'm a VO/VA vegan and I flat out disagree with the vegan society definition. I did not mean this to become a debate about "vegan". In fact, I got sucked into that debate by others' comments (and beancounter's veiled and not so veiled accusations). It's not argumentative to defend my own ethical convictions!
To get back to the original topic, when someone as well known as Ginny Messina brings this up on her twitter stream it's not simply about the needs of some extreme minority. In fact, it reminds me of when Michael Greger stirred the honey pot ten years ago -- hence the title.
FortyTwo
Custom Title
Freesia
not my business.
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I dont understand what else you can feed a cat. They demand feeding and you cant exactly give them lightly sauted kale, and mushrooms stuffed with herbs and shallots. They will give you a really filthy look and walk off.
