You said you all know who you are as if someone besides Forest Nymph was uncivil in this thread. Who besides her were you referring to?
Need career advice (related to veganism)
- Thread starter Forest Nymph
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You said you all know who you are as if someone besides Forest Nymph was uncivil in this thread. Who besides her were you referring to?
I wasn't answering you, FN, I was replying to a post that is no longer visible. Sorry for not quoting it.
They asked "what is a plant based diet" according to science and insinuated that it meant you ate plants and then animal products.
Emma JC
OP
OP
Ok sorry. I promise I'm not trying to get anyone to eat animal products lol.
I was painting with a broad brush, but the message was clear. If I was going to call out an individual, it will be done in PM, as always.
Ok, I was just wondering if that was directed at me in any way, because as far as I can tell I have been conducting myself like a complete gentleman who merely has a differing viewpoint from the OP and wasn't uncivil at all.
TofuRobot
Forum Legend
Honestly I am having difficulty understanding the rationale behind arguing about which angle from which to come when it comes to championing for veganism. It comes across very 'judgey' and personally, I think we should be supporting each other and working together in whatever way possible. Just because someone is coming from the environmental angle when arguing in favor of veganism doesn't mean they're doing it wrong because they're choosing not to focus on the ethics of it from the start. If I try to beat people in the head with how immoral and unethical it is to kill animals and that's why they should go vegan, I wouldn't get anywhere with anyone. Because the consumption of animals and their products is SO deeply ingrained in almost every culture everywhere, you're going to have to prove to these people it's not *necessary,* first. Because that is the problem that I see right now. Conquering the notion that it's all necessary. It's like trying to force an addict to quit using by telling them - well, anything, really. People are literally addicted - to a belief system, very strong culture norms, taste, everything. And as we all know, you cannot make an addict quit, no matter what you do or say. They have to want to quit. So you must come from a place of understanding, respect, and support before people will ever listen to you about anything regarding morals or ethics of the choices that they make. When people know they have that, they're more inclined to information you share. And facts (like facts about how veganism benefits the planet) are useful because you can't argue them. Whereas you can argue morality and ethics all day long.
And another thing @nobody - you are assuming in all of this that there is one morality - right is right and wrong is wrong. You could literally spend the rest of your life in a philosophy class debating that. Morality tends to be subjective for a lot of people. Their set of "right" is not going to be the same as the next person's.
In short, I believe we have to be compassionate people in our approach with people. Coming at them from a place of moral high-ground is not the way to do that.
And another thing @nobody - you are assuming in all of this that there is one morality - right is right and wrong is wrong. You could literally spend the rest of your life in a philosophy class debating that. Morality tends to be subjective for a lot of people. Their set of "right" is not going to be the same as the next person's.
In short, I believe we have to be compassionate people in our approach with people. Coming at them from a place of moral high-ground is not the way to do that.
You seem to be suggesting I'm against the environmental approach but I'm not. I'm just against saying the environment is the primary reason people should change their diet. Facts about how veganism benefits the planet can be given without saying that.
As far as morality, I believe in subjective, relative morality and to get non-vegans to share our morality regarding animals, it's important to not say anything we wouldn't say if the victims were human because if you do it only reinforces the non-vegans' speciesism.
As far as morality, I believe in subjective, relative morality and to get non-vegans to share our morality regarding animals, it's important to not say anything we wouldn't say if the victims were human because if you do it only reinforces the non-vegans' speciesism.
TofuRobot
Forum Legend
It's in the phrase "plant-based diets for environmental reasons" in the OP. If you say it's the reason people should go vegan, without qualifying it as the second most important reason to go vegan or something, you're saying it's the primary reason - the reason. It doesn't need to be said. Talk about how veganism benefits the planet and leave it at that. You don't have to say "and that's why you should go vegan" at the end, because this introduces problems, like someone responding with "well there is this way here to exploit animals without hurting the environment much", for one thing. Another is that it contradicts the animal rights message if you explicitly say the environment is the reason people should change, without clarifying that it is the second most important reason, if you want animal rights to be taken seriously. But you don't have to say anything about animal rights at all, just don't contradict animal rights by saying "the environment is the reason you should change".
TofuRobot
Forum Legend
"plant-based diets for environmental reasons" =/= " the environment is the primary reason people should change their diet."
This is how the game of "Telephone" goes wrong.
This is how the game of "Telephone" goes wrong.
Never mind primary then. I'm not against the environmental approach, I'm just against vegans who believe in animal rights saying the environment is the reason why people should change their diet. If a non-vegan says that while talking about switching to chicken or something like that, that's fine, because they don't believe in animal rights anyway. If an ethical vegan says that it's a betrayal.
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OP
OP
Okay well, no one here is talking about "switching to chicken" in fact the entire motive for my pursuit of another degree is to stop this insanity of people thinking they can just "switch to chicken", or at least do my small part in it. Honestly I have found it overall insulting, arrogant and unhelpful for certain forum members to continue to insist this is about traditional 1990s solutions like "chicken 'n fish" without reading the studies I posted or attempting to comprehend my actual posts and not what they imagine they're about. If I am triggered by anything, above all things, it's a "flexitarian" and oh my god I live with two of them.
ANYWAY...all I'm waiting on is one more professional letter of recommendation, I've applied for everything, and I've also applied for a part time job on campus in sustainability outreach for this semester that I could continue as a grad student.
I appreciate all of the people who have offered helpful advice and support, because now I am absolutely sure this is what I want to do, and now am simply ruminating on what I want to do about it while I finalize the last details of the app process. Between feedback here, and irl, and my own personal days of solitude/silence/reflection that I took a couple of times over the winter break, I feel pretty confident about this project and actually staying where I am rather than going back to the city and a more competitive but less specific school. Ironically, according to my inquiries, my current school has a much more helpfully specific program to Sustainable Food Systems than bigger, more famous schools that offer general skills in research with the carrot on the stick of hoping a gold star professor will pick up your project or thesis. Ain't nobody got time for that.
ANYWAY...all I'm waiting on is one more professional letter of recommendation, I've applied for everything, and I've also applied for a part time job on campus in sustainability outreach for this semester that I could continue as a grad student.
I appreciate all of the people who have offered helpful advice and support, because now I am absolutely sure this is what I want to do, and now am simply ruminating on what I want to do about it while I finalize the last details of the app process. Between feedback here, and irl, and my own personal days of solitude/silence/reflection that I took a couple of times over the winter break, I feel pretty confident about this project and actually staying where I am rather than going back to the city and a more competitive but less specific school. Ironically, according to my inquiries, my current school has a much more helpfully specific program to Sustainable Food Systems than bigger, more famous schools that offer general skills in research with the carrot on the stick of hoping a gold star professor will pick up your project or thesis. Ain't nobody got time for that.
OP
OP
Man, why do I keep struggling with this?
I worked to make sure I had my full application, financial aid forms, and letters of recommendation in by the due date....and less than a month into the new semester I'm re-thinking school.
What I hate about being an undergraduate are having very specific required classes to graduate. So far this semester I like environmental law, parks management, and my heavy botany-focused science lab will be arduous but interesting. However, my "senior capstone" is a serious annoyance to me, a lot of time-consuming work that's not necessarily intellectually difficult but forces me to work in a group project as well as developing a professional portfolio. And I can't graduate without capstone. Thinking about juggling capstone with the heavy science class makes me feel tired already.
My bosses' partner last summer reassured me that she preferred grad school to undergrad because there was so much more focus on what you really want to be doing. I hope so, because it kind of feels like I'm just sick of being in school.
I worked to make sure I had my full application, financial aid forms, and letters of recommendation in by the due date....and less than a month into the new semester I'm re-thinking school.
What I hate about being an undergraduate are having very specific required classes to graduate. So far this semester I like environmental law, parks management, and my heavy botany-focused science lab will be arduous but interesting. However, my "senior capstone" is a serious annoyance to me, a lot of time-consuming work that's not necessarily intellectually difficult but forces me to work in a group project as well as developing a professional portfolio. And I can't graduate without capstone. Thinking about juggling capstone with the heavy science class makes me feel tired already.
My bosses' partner last summer reassured me that she preferred grad school to undergrad because there was so much more focus on what you really want to be doing. I hope so, because it kind of feels like I'm just sick of being in school.
rogerjolly
Forum Legend
I am absolutely convinced she is right. And if you have a tutor who is at least semi-progressive you can make suggestions as to changes in directions you would like to go off in when they become apparent. You might not be in complete control but you are certainly not the “utter underling” of a first degree course.
Roger.
PS It’s nice to see a very interesting thread back on course.
TofuRobot
Forum Legend
I don't have any advice for you, just commiseration with having mounds of homework to do. I actually love school, but at 53 y/o single parent I'm just so over all the danged testing. It's exhausting. I feel like I have no life.
OP
OP
I am absolutely convinced she is right. And if you have a tutor who is at least semi-progressive you can make suggestions as to changes in directions you would like to go off in when they become apparent. You might not be in complete control but you are certainly not the “utter underling” of a first degree course.
Roger.
PS It’s nice to see a very interesting thread back on course.
Thank you Roger! I appreciate the support!
OP
OP
Yeah I'm sure it's harder being a mom. I like my major and facets of college life. I just hate time consuming group projects. I am in a better mood today. I need perspective sometimes.
TofuRobot
Forum Legend
I [very much dislike] group projects. In all of my college career (which is a lot, for someone who only has a 2-year degree), I've only had one group project that I didn't dislike. It was a Social Media Marketing class and we had a 'random acts of kindness' project and each team competed against all the others. Our team won, which was pretty cool. I don't expect that to happen ever again in my lifetime, LOL
OP
OP
I have gone to three schools, one community college and two four-year universities, and this is the first place that goes crazy with group projects like this. It's like they think if they don't give you five group projects a semester you're not getting your money's worth. This was my "dream school" too...this was my final stop and I was super excited to be here. I still love many things about the school (I applied to grad school here, just in a different department) but I'll be really happy to leave all the undergrad group projects. It was like someone sent the president of the college an article about how Millennials were team-oriented as a generation and they took it WAY too literally.
TofuRobot
Forum Legend
There was definite a decision from the top somewhere because it all started at the same time, and it tickles down to middle school and possibly further than that.
