Pre-Nups for Ordinary People

[Forster]

Sure. But going in, and probably throughout most of their marriages, they were just as confident in the health and general wonderfulness of their relationships as you are in yours. People don't realize that they're deluding themselves until suddenly they aren't.


What you guys don't realize is that a prenup isn't about saying "A gets everything and B gets only what s/he brought into the marriage." It's about deciding, upfront, what would be equitable in a variety of situations, and that process really shows whether people are on the same page - for instance, if A is going to be the homemaker, whether A and B value that role equally.

If you can't come to an agreement about such things upfront, then really your relationship isn't very strong or very honest.

I can't agree with this more. Why don't more people discuss all the important issues up front cause I've been amazed over the years the number that don't.

 

[kazyeeqen]

I absolutely don't agree with the 'then you shouldn't have married them in the first place' sentiment. That is total BS. Divorces don't just happen to irresponsible people and thinking that they do is really smug.

Even when people break up amicably there can be a lot of heightened emotions and resentment, even if you are just resenting the time you spent in a relationship that didn't work out. I know from some of the nastier fights I've had with my husband that I am a vicious, vicious ***** sometimes, I can only imagine that if we ever split up (hopefully that won't happen, but hell we could be talking about the next 40 years, how can we know what will happen?!) we won't be thinking rationally or fairly.

I didn't have anything when I got married, but I would certainly consider it if I was looking at getting married after I owned a house or property. And if my man was turned off by that I would know he's not the man for me, because anyone so blinded by 'how marriage should be' that they couldn't see how marriage often is shouldn't be getting married in the first place.

Also reminds me of life insurance. We're thinking about getting some, for me and for the man. Feels kinda bad, like we'll be benefiting from the other one's death, but it'd feel a lot worse if one of us died and the other one lost our house.

 

[beancounter]

Don't feel bad. Life insurance is one of the smartest finacial moves you can make. However, not policies and insurance companies are created equal. Definitely shop around and go with a firm that's been around a long time and has a good rating.

 

[Freesia]

I dont know, I had the most awful, train wreck like breakup with my last ex. We still managed to not screw each other over though. I just dont like the idea of cutting and carving everything up via contract is such a good thing, it is like pre-empting your breakup. I think it is good to do things like agree on separate bank accounts and perhaps have one joint, but every step of the way you need to be making financial decisions together anyway so I dont see the point in planning the end.

 

[mlp]

I dont know, I had the most awful, train wreck like breakup with my last ex. We still managed to not screw each other over though. I just dont like the idea of cutting and carving everything up via contract is such a good thing, it is like pre-empting your breakup. I think it is good to do things like agree on separate bank accounts and perhaps have one joint, but every step of the way you need to be making financial decisions together anyway so I dont see the point in planning the end.

Yeah, but did you own anything jointly that was significant to both of you, like a house, retirement funds, etc.?

It's not "planning the end" - it's agreeing what's fair before you start mingling assets and before you're angry at each other. It's the same thing as people going into business together, except in marriage, it's not just the business at stake, it's everything in your lives. Property disputes in divorces are expensive, drawn out, and ugly. Attorneys' fees in my divorce were in six figures, despite there not being that much to argue about. No one, and I mean no one, wins in a property disputed divorce except the lawyers.

 

[Freesia]

That is true. Perhaps I am something of an old fashioned idealist, and I kind of think the emotional risks you take with a relationship are just as great as the financial risks. There is no pre nup for that- no pre nup to ensure you dont end up emotionally bankrupted. Life is full of risk.

 

[Forster]

Yeah, but did you own anything jointly that was significant to both of you, like a house, retirement funds, etc.?

It's not "planning the end" - it's agreeing what's fair before you start mingling assets and before you're angry at each other. It's the same thing as people going into business together, except in marriage, it's not just the business at stake, it's everything in your lives. Property disputes in divorces are expensive, drawn out, and ugly. Attorneys' fees in my divorce were in six figures, despite there not being that much to argue about. No one, and I mean no one, wins in a property disputed divorce except the lawyers.

The business thing is a perfect analogy. I don't know how many times I've know business partners to go into a business with the best of intentions, I always advise them to get an operating agreement drafted, partner buyout agreements, agreements drawn out in the case of a breakup, death whatever etc., etc. I tell them do it now while your still friends cause I've seen what happens when things don't work out and no agreements are in place. UGLY, not to mention really expensive.

 

[Forster]

That is true. Perhaps I am something of an old fashioned idealist, and I kind of think the emotional risks you take with a relationship are just as great as the financial risks. There is no pre nup for that- no pre nup to ensure you dont end up emotionally bankrupted. Life is full of risk.

Some risks are manageable though.

 

[Freesia]

No I dont believe this to be the case. The worst things are the things that absolutely blindside you.

 

[mlp]

The business thing is a perfect analogy. I don't know how many times I've know business partners to go into a business with the best of intentions, I always advise them to get an operating agreement drafted, partner buyout agreements, agreements drawn out in the case of a breakup, death whatever etc., etc. I tell them do it now while your still friends cause I've seen what happens when things don't work out and no agreements are in place. UGLY, not to mention really expensive.

Agree 100% - I always strongly advised the same. The lack of agreements kills friendships as well as the business.

 

[Freesia]

I dont like the idea of a pre nup. However I do think it is sensible to keep separate bank accounts, and have a lawyer and get them to keep lists of whose possession belongs to who and what is a joint possession.

 

[mlp]

No I dont believe this to be the case. The worst things are the things that absolutely blindside you.

No one is arguing that the emotional aspect of a breakup isn't bad. What we're saying is that (1) arguing over property division makes the emotional part even worse, because it increases and prolongs the ugliness, and (2) being financially devastated by the costs of a prolonged dispute is another burden heaped on an already difficult time, and actually has much longer term consequences.

 

[mlp]

I dont like the idea of a pre nup. However I do think it is sensible to keep separate bank accounts, and have a lawyer and get them to keep lists of whose possession belongs to who and what is a joint possession.

You're describing a prenup.

 

[Freesia]

No. No contract. Just financial clarity throughout the union.

 

[mlp]

No. No contract. Just financial clarity throughout the union.

An agreement as to what is separate and what is joint is a contract. Pretty much any agreement between two or more people is, legally speaking, a contract. (Exceptions being that agreements pertaining to real property have to be in writing, rather than merely oral, in order to be legally binding, a promise to make a gift is not legally binding unless the person making the promise could reasonably expect that the other person would rely on the promise to his detriment, etc.)

 

[AspireToExpire]

I'd sign one but I am pretty sure I would be offended by being asked to do so, so offended and spiteful that I would let it be known and sign it just to prove if we parted I wouldn't want anything to do with you including your last name.

 

[Ansciess]

I can understand them, but I'd still be kind of hurt by being asked to sign one. Not a deal-breaker for the relationship, but it might make me question why we're bothering to get married in the first place rather than just living together.

Meh, everyone is different. My girlfriend makes more money than me and the property we built our house on is in her name, and if we got married and then divorced I'd want her to have most of the assets anyway if for no other reason than because I'd want what's best for our son. I don't have anything I couldn't get again, it's just stuff. Money can be remade and homes rebuilt.

I like this attitude. I don't think break-ups HAVE to be bitter with each side trying to get everything for themselves. Although too often it ends up that way.

 

[Ansciess]

if we parted I wouldn't want anything to do with you including your last name.

There's a question. How many nontraditional females want to change their last name anymore?

 

[mlp]

I have never, ever, understood changing one's name because of getting married. I remember first hearing about it when I was five or so, couldn't understand it then, can't understand it now.

 

[Ansciess]

I've never understood it either. People used to say it was for the children so everyone could have the same last name, but I know people who get married with no intention to have children and the woman still changes her name.

If there's going to be a name change I think both members should come up with a new name that they share.

I also think the woman changing her name as custom keeps sexism alive. You still hear of wanting a son "to carry on the family name."