"Proud white man"

[Freesia]

It is only 'xenophobic' as you call it because it correctly identifies the ethnic and cultural background of the rapists; but hey ho I'm sure that you can find excuses for their cultural disposition towards raping Western females. Carry on reading the Guardian mate.

Well I have a Pakistani friend and he is one of the most sweetest, most adorable people I have ever met.

 

[SummerRain]

Mod Post: I just wanted to post a reminder that it is against the forum rules to insult members. In the debates forum it's good to discuss and debate ideas, but please focus your argument on those ideas and not on members themselves.

The debates forum specific rules are here. The whole forum rules are here.

 

[FortyTwo]

I wouldn't disagree with the idea that lots of 'liberals' look the other way when it comes to foreign affairs. However, there's a difference between recognizing a rape epidemic in Pakistan and the power structures in the United States/the West in general. You can't just dismiss the fact that people of color in the U.S. are discriminated against on the basis that they aren't being oppressed by white power structures elsewhere, because, well, duh. It would be ethnocentric to claim that a white-favoring power structure is a universal oppressor or the root of evil in every society on Earth. But you can't ignore the fact that it exists in a lot of places just because it doesn't govern some.

If that makes any sense.

 

[Freesia]

All I know is that the times I have felt unsafe around a particular guy, they have all been of white caucasian descent. Not to say that white caucasians are particularly dangerous, but I dont see a clean record there. So while there are inbuilt problems in societies which are a lot more patriarchal than the Western societies, I think that white people should focus on keeping their own laundry clean so to speak, before they will be able to be in the position to try and criticise other groups.

 

[Clueless Git]

It is only 'xenophobic' as you call it because it correctly identifies the ethnic and cultural background of the rapists ...

You're not alone, Yokel.

Something that amuses me, in a distressing kinda way ...

The HSBC's 'understanding cultural differences' series of adverts

Spoiler

was accepted, pretty much universaly, as simple and unassailable wisdom. Which, basicaly, was precisely all they were.

They were about extracting money from people(s) of different cultures though.

The mere suggestion that the same simple and unassailable wisdom could/should be employed to protect vunerable young girls; Entirely different matter though.

 

[Clueless Git]

I think that white people should focus on keeping their own laundry clean so to speak, before they will be able to be in the position to try and criticise other groups.

Non white rapists would have very good reason to like that idea, a lot.

 

[Freesia]

Non white rapists would have very good reason to like that idea, a lot.

Why would they like that idea? Why shouldnt white people take responsibility for their behaviour too?

 

[beancounter]

Why would they like that idea? Why shouldnt white people take responsibility for their behaviour too?

I think the point is that everyone should take responsibility for their actions, and that belonging to a minority group shouldn't exempt you from responsibility for those actions.

The classic example is when someone from a minority group commits a crime, and people try to excuse the criminal behavior by saying things such as "he had a bad childhood" or "he was abused" or "it's part of his culture" or "his ancestors were oppressed", etc.

 

[Envy]

I think the point is that everyone should take responsibility for their actions, and that belonging to a minority group shouldn't exempt you from responsibility for those actions.

The classic example is when someone from a minority group commits a crime, and people try to excuse the criminal behavior by saying things such as "he had a bad childhood" or "he was abused" or "it's part of his culture" or "his ancestors were oppressed", etc.

First two aren't really minority-specific from what I've seen though, and the "it's part of his culture" is more often used as a way to brush over individual factors that was involved in the crime - as to say, he didn't do it because of X and Y, but because he was from a certain culture, thus suggesting that they all have an inclination for that certain crime.

 

[Freesia]

I think the point is that everyone should take responsibility for their actions, and that belonging to a minority group shouldn't exempt you from responsibility for those actions.

The classic example is when someone from a minority group commits a crime, and people try to excuse the criminal behavior by saying things such as "he had a bad childhood" or "he was abused" or "it's part of his culture" or "his ancestors were oppressed", etc.

But I dont see where anybody is saying that a minority group is exempt. If anyone actually read my post. I wrote that some groups have some inbuilt problems due to the patriarchal nature of the culture of some countries, ie involuntary arranged marriages, women not being allowed to inherit property, etc.

Strangely enough though these things are not a problem for Westerners, yet it doesnt seem to stop some white men from doing some pretty messed up stuff.

 

[beancounter]

But I dont see where anybody is saying that a minority group is exempt. If anyone actually read my post. I wrote that some groups have some inbuilt problems due to the patriarchal nature of the culture of some countries, ie involuntary arranged marriages, women not being allowed to inherit property, etc.

But that's just another way of saying "it's part of his culture".

Just because certain groups face more problems than white western males, doesn't make the white male's crime worse, or the minorites crime less so.

 

[Freesia]

That is the thing though. Despite these cultural differences, I dont really see that white men are in any way morally superior. So what I am saying is that the people in the previous pages criticising Pakistani men dont really have a leg to stand on. And neither do you.

 

[Clueless Git]

This is nearly impossible to engage in now ..

The notion that for so long as one, or more, white man/men is/are immoral then all white men are immoral is pure racist (and sexist) nonsense?

 

[beancounter]

That is the thing though. Despite these cultural differences, I dont really see that white men are in any way morally superior. So what I am saying is that the people in the previous pages criticising Pakistani men dont really have a leg to stand on. And neither do you.

First and foremost, I never said or implied that white western males were morally superior..... Not sure how you interpreted what I said that way.

Is it because you think:

The notion that for so long as one, or more, white man/men is/are immoral then all white men are immoral

But to you other point - you're saying that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones?
Fair enough.

 

[Spang]

"There's a saying that goes, 'People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.' OK. How about, 'Nobody should throw stones'? That's crappy behavior. My policy is, 'No stone throwing regardless of housing situation.' " --Demetri Martin

 

[beancounter]

"There's a saying that goes, 'People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.' OK. How about, 'Nobody should throw stones'? That's crappy behavior. My policy is, 'No stone throwing regardless of housing situation.' " --Demetri Martin

Well I think it's implied in the saying that everyone lives in a glass house, and therefore shouldn't throw stones.

 

[Clueless Git]

Oh, FFS! I tried but I couldn't resist ...

Why would they like that idea?

I just had it mind that any rapist/wrong doer of any colour would like the idea of barring non-rapists of all other colours from criticising their rape/wrong doing.

Only if rapists and wrong doers have a distinct preference for more, as opposed to less, criticism could what I said possibly be wrong.

Why shouldn't white people take responsibility for their behaviour too?

Is it only whites who should take responsibility for all other whites or does that apply to other races too?

 

[Clueless Git]

My policy is, 'No stone throwing regardless of housing situation."

What is the specific 'housing situation' that gives you the right to tell other people not to throw stones, Spang?

 

[Envy]

Different cultures will always have different inclinations, beliefs and norms, and will and should be subject to criticism, as long as it's not a blatant excuse for self-glorification.

 

[FortyTwo]

I think the point is that everyone should take responsibility for their actions, and that belonging to a minority group shouldn't exempt you from responsibility for those actions.

The classic example is when someone from a minority group commits a crime, and people try to excuse the criminal behavior by saying things such as "he had a bad childhood" or "he was abused" or "it's part of his culture" or "his ancestors were oppressed", etc.

I'm not saying this doesn't happen - and when it does, it usually happens because of liberals who are only half-educated on the issue of racism and see it as a chance to take pity rather than the issue that it is - but what I see happening much more often is members of minority groups being vilified on a much larger scale than those in majority groups (those terms annoy me but there's nothing I can think of that is more all-encompassing).

For instance, everyone took the **** out on Trayvon Martin, saying he was a thug, and pointing to his pot smoking habits, and he didn't even commit a crime. Compare that to the Ohio State football players who were accused of rape, and the torrent of sympathy they received from the media. How sad that their careers are over! They had such a promising life before it was ruined by this one tragic incident! Etc, etc, ignoring the actual crimes they had committed.

Kind-of a bad example, as they aren't at all parallels and the first deals with racism while the second deals with sexism. But both involve someone from a comparatively less privileged group (Trayvon in the first case, the victim in the second case) being met with more aggression from society than the privileged people who were the real criminals in the situation (Zimmerman in the first case, the football players in the second).