Random thoughts about Veg*nism, and wotnot.

[KLS52]

but honestly I've yet to make or have a good vegan lasagna.

Hi. I know we don't know each other well. It's me...the non-confrontational, non-argumentative one. But you are so going down, baby, on this point. Ha.

 

[ledboots]

@flyingsnail , how would you go about changing the food culture? I work with pregnant women, and some develop diabetes during pregnancy, which is dangerous for the mother and especially the fetus. Getting even women whose unborn child is at risk to change their eating habits is very difficult. A mere mention of the word "vegetable" and they make the"yuck" face.

 

[flyingsnail]

Hi. I know we don't know each other well. It's me...the non-confrontational, non-argumentative one. But you are so going down, baby, on this point. Ha.

I'm not sure what you mean...but I was speaking from my personal experience. I do have a lot of experience cooking but its certainly possible someone has figured out how to make an vegan lasagna that is just as tasty as a traditional one.....I just just haven't experienced one and I know it doesn't happen by replacing cheese with daiya and other common cheese substitutes. Personally, I think a spiced tofu scramble makes a reasonable substitute for ricotta cheese which isn't very flavorful....but its the melting cheeses that are hard to replace.

@flyingsnail , how would you go about changing the food culture? I work with pregnant women, and some develop diabetes during pregnancy, which is dangerous for the mother and especially the fetus. Getting even women whose unborn child is at risk to change their eating habits is very difficult. A mere mention of the word "vegetable" and they make the"yuck" face.

The same way the food industry has done it over the last 50 decades, that is, utilizing the latest marketing and psychological techniques to manipulate how and what people consume. While I doubt its very common, I've not seen any numbers regarding how many women refuse lifestyle changes even when there is a serious issue like gestational diabetes. But what I do know is that the nutritional advice given to pregnant women (and everyone else) is rather poor which explains why the medical establishment has done nothing to improve the rates of gestational diabetes....or diabetes in general. They just keep getting worse.

But I've mostly been talking about a cultural shift from a animal-based culinary culture to one that is plant oriented, such a shift doesn't necessarily mean more vegetables or even a healthier diet instead just one where the foods are created for and from plant derived ingredients. I think addressing both the nature of the ingredients and the healthfulness of the ingredients at the same time makes sense but the shift from a junk-food oriented diet to a healthy whole foods oriented diet involves psychological issues like addiction so the only realistic option may be to promote a plant-oriented diet that is merely a bit healthier rather than one that is truly healthful. Mock animal products, if anything, reduce the healthfulness of diets since they generally have poor nutritional value.

 

[Blobbenstein]

Mock animal products, if anything, reduce the healthfulness of diets since they generally have poor nutritional value.

poorer than actual meat, but if the rest of the diet is ok, does it matter?

 

[KLS52]

I'm not sure what you mean...but I was speaking from my personal experience. I do have a lot of experience cooking but its certainly possible someone has figured out how to make an vegan lasagna that is just as tasty as a traditional one.....I just just haven't experienced one and I know it doesn't happen by replacing cheese with daiya and other common cheese substitutes. Personally, I think a spiced tofu scramble makes a reasonable substitute for ricotta cheese which isn't very flavorful....but its the melting cheeses that are hard to replace.

Well, first off, you took it way more serious than it was intended. I was trying to be lighthearted and funny. But I wish you could taste my vegan lasagna...even the die-hard-meat-eating hunters at work loved it. I was just playin' with ya.

 

[flyingsnail]

poorer than actual meat, but if the rest of the diet is ok, does it matter?

But if we are talking about the average person the rest of the diet isn't okay and the meat, dairy and eggs are likely the most nutritious component of the diet. If people have to change the rest of their diet so they have the room, nutritionally speaking, for mock meats then mock meats can't be claimed to be a simple and straightforward replacement for meat.

Well, first off, you took it way more serious than it was intended. I was trying to be lighthearted and funny. But I wish you could taste my vegan lasagna...even the die-hard-meat-eating hunters at work loved it.

Well...I wasn't sure how the comment was intended so I figured I'd just clarify myself. In any case, how did you create a lasagna that is on par with a traditional one?

 

[Dedalus]

While some aspects of our food culture date back thousands of years much of what we eat today is relatively new. The food industry has actively changed western food culture over the last 50 years.

Eating animal flesh is not new. Humans have always loved killing things.

 

[Second Summer]

Mock animal products, if anything, reduce the healthfulness of diets since they generally have poor nutritional value.

I'm not sure I agree with that. You have to take into account also the unhealthy aspects of meat that you will be avoiding by eating something vegan.

 

[flyingsnail]

Eating animal flesh is not new. Humans have always loved killing things.

Eating animals is not new, but my point was that long held traditions change all the time. While people obviously still eat meat in the west, many food traditions have changed over the last 50 years for better or worse.

I'm not so sure humans, in general, love killing things. Most people prefer not to think where their meat comes from, they don't relish in the killing and suffering.

I'm not sure I agree with that. You have to take into account also the unhealthy aspects of meat that you will be avoiding by eating something vegan.

Yes, I would agree, and in some cases the mock meat may actually be more healthful even if its more nutrient poor than the meat. For example, even when made of processed ingredients a veggie burger is likely to be better for you than a fatty beef burger where as a salmon burger is likely more healthful than both. But still, I think its important to keep in mind that meat, dairy and eggs are some of the most nutritious parts of the typical western diet and replacing them with nutrient poor processed alternatives can present some serious problems given that the typical western diet is already rather poor.

 

[Dedalus]

I'm not so sure humans, in general, love killing things. Most people prefer not to think where their meat comes from, they don't relish in the killing and suffering.

Perhaps a majority of people don't actually participate in the killing and suffering of animals themselves - but they are still complicit in its horrors. People know and understand that it takes place - and they are just fine with it, they accept this as part of our meat-eating society, just like they accept hunting and fishing as completely normal, natural things. That you don't have a spot on the killing floor of a slaughterhouse does not get you off the hook for what happens there if you are a consumer of its products. Showing indifference to animal suffering - even if one claims not to have the 'stomach' for doing it themselves - shows an acceptance of the culture of killing.

Factory farming is an example of how good humans have gotten at killing. We can now do it faster, in greater numbers and in less time than ever before. We've genetically modified farm animals to grow and get fatter in a fraction of the time it used to take. This amounts to more dead animals per year than ever before in human history.

 

[flyingsnail]

People know and understand that it takes place - and they are just fine with it, they accept this as part of our meat-eating society, just like they accept hunting and fishing as completely normal, natural things.

From my experience most people aren't thinking about animals being killed when they are purchasing meat, they purchase meat much like they do anything else. A few weeks ago while out to eat with some family I asked one of my younger relatives "how was your dead bird"....and he said "it isn't dead bird....oh wait". Now when you point out what they are doing do they generally stop? No....but they often show signs of cognitive dissonance.

Factory farming is an example of how good humans have gotten at killing. We can now do it faster, in greater numbers and in less time than ever before.

Its an example of how a very small fraction of society has gotten good at slaughtering animals. Most people have no idea what happens on factory farms.

 

[Ann Chovie]

People know and understand that it takes place -

But many will claim that they do NOT know it takes place. On another forum someone claimed that she had come to Vegetarianism in her early 40's after reading an article about factory farming which stunned and repulsed her. She claimed she had no idea animals were farmed in such a way.

I find that hard to accept this , as the evidence of cruelty is available everywhere in written and image form. It is even given token coverage on omni cookery programmes. I fail to see how (in forty years ) you could miss it in some form? ...unless you closed your eyes to it. Refused to look at the images or accept that the written word was truth. Put your hand over your ears and closed your eyes to avoid it?

People continue to eat meat as long as they can remain convinced that cows and sheep still live in fields with their young scampering around them..just like in nursery tales. They neither want to know or accept that this is no longer the case.

I did not become a Vegan as a result of suddenly realising that these practices were carried out but as a result of bearing the torment of knowing that they did and realising I did not want them carried out in my name anymore[/QUOTE]

 

[Dedalus]

Now when you point out what they are doing do they generally stop? No....but they often show signs of cognitive dissonance.

If you are making an argument 'for' humanity this really isn't a good one. It's apathy. It's indifference. It's "I don't want to get my hands dirty; as long as someone else does the killing I'm okay with it." Humanity shows cognitive dissonance to the idea of war - while still supportting war. Besides being good at killing, (other humans too!) we also excel at hypocrisy. Cognitive dissonance would not keep the guy who hired a hit man to kill his wife out of jail.

Its an example of how a very small fraction of society has gotten good at slaughtering animals. Most people have no idea what happens on factory farms.

I think that a number of people who eat meat portray that they do not know what really goes on at factory farms as a form of their denial that they are part of the problem. Regardless whether or not one knows the gory details - there has to be a logical conclusion that a slaughterhouse is not a peaceful place where animals happily go to die. Even the densest of society can connect the dots.

People continue to eat meat as long as they can remain convinced that cows and sheep still live in fields with their young scampering around them..just like in nursery tales.

Exactly. I don't even think most of them believe it - but meat marketing pimps these serene images of animals in front of us to further those beliefs. Happy cows and pigs that talk, cartoon characters of animals, etc. The ever popular buzzwords like 'free-range' and 'cage-free.' They are not fooling anyone - but they do make it ever so convenient to not look behind the curtain.

 

[flyingsnail]

It's indifference. It's "I don't want to get my hands dirty; as long as someone else does the killing I'm okay with it."

I don't think this is how most people feel about it, instead they try to block out the reality as much as they can and when you bring it up it tends to result in some level of cognitive dissonance. Many, if not the vast majority, of vegetarians and vegans in the west became such as adults. Were they indifferent, etc before becoming vegetarian and then had some major change that resulted in them becoming vegetarian? That isn't what I see, people that become vegetarian usually display varying degrees of dissonance before they change their lifestyle. Often its done gradually.

there has to be a logical conclusion that a slaughterhouse is not a peaceful place where animals happily go to die. Even the densest of society can connect the dots.

Yes, most are going to realize that animals get slaughtered but unless you have an in principle objection to the killing of animals for human needs then this fact isn't going to get people to stop eating animals. What people often aren't aware of is the nature of the slaughter and the living conditions of the animals before they are slaughtered.

 

[Ann Chovie]

Exactly. I don't even think most of them believe it - but meat marketing pimps these serene images of animals in front of us to further those beliefs. Happy cows and pigs that talk, cartoon characters of animals, etc. The ever popular buzzwords like 'free-range' and 'cage-free.' They are not fooling anyone - but they do make it ever so convenient to not look behind the curtain.

There seems to be an ever increasing snobbery around buying free range or organic and a derision or disgust of those who are perceived as too selfish or stupid to do so but in actual fact are too poor to do so. A definite class divide. Organic /free range is seen as the domain of the middle and upper classes who use it as a visible sign of affluence as much as a nod to animal welfare. Theirs is the luxury of paying four times the price for 'quality' meat without going without anything else whereas for the working class it is a choice between cheap food or affording to pay their utility bills.

Highlighted for me at a recent event where Jamie Oliver was discussing the merits of free range in an audience of predominantly middle class folk. He was urging his audience to buy only free range to avoid the 'nasty' factory farming.

Of course this was met with great applause and knowing self -congratulatory nods from his middle class groupies who were well heeled enough to pay four times the price for an organic chicken to a factory one. They were bursting with pride at being validated as caring, wholesome beings who had no factory blood on their hands at all.

Their Disney moo cows were called Daisy and LouLou and they knew this because the local supplier had cutely named the beast on the back of the shrink wrapped corpse. How sweet!!!

One friend recently boasted about the fact that she brought free range because she knew the animals did not suffer and were treated with respect.

When I hinted that maybe their journey to the slaughterhouse and the processes within may be a BIT stressful she gave me an ' are you stupid or what ?' look and said very earnestly

' oh no.. they have their own organic slaughterhouses where they are treated with respect and kindness. '

No amount of explaining that the cows were not led in one by one down a softly lit grassy bank , being stroked and comforted before been 'humanely' and respectfully slaughtered would convince her otherwise.

She chose to end the conversation by advising me to get my facts straight and walking off indignantly.

 

[Dedalus]

' oh no.. they have their own organic slaughterhouses where they are treated with respect and kindness. '

No amount of explaining that the cows were not led in one by one down a softly lit grassy bank , being stroked and comforted before been 'humanely' and respectfully slaughtered would convince her otherwise.

She chose to end the conversation by advising me to get my facts straight and walking off indignantly.

Aye carumba. I have no words. She is drinking some powerful kool-aid.

 

[PTree15]

There seems to be an ever increasing snobbery around buying free range or organic and a derision or disgust of those who are perceived as too selfish or stupid to do so but in actual fact are too poor to do so. A definite class divide. Organic /free range is seen as the domain of the middle and upper classes who use it as a visible sign of affluence as much as a nod to animal welfare. Theirs is the luxury of paying four times the price for 'quality' meat without going without anything else whereas for the working class it is a choice between cheap food or affording to pay their utility bills.

Highlighted for me at a recent event where Jamie Oliver was discussing the merits of free range in an audience of predominantly middle class folk. He was urging his audience to buy only free range to avoid the 'nasty' factory farming.

Of course this was met with great applause and knowing self -congratulatory nods from his middle class groupies who were well heeled enough to pay four times the price for an organic chicken to a factory one. They were bursting with pride at being validated as caring, wholesome beings who had no factory blood on their hands at all.

Their Disney moo cows were called Daisy and LouLou and they knew this because the local supplier had cutely named the beast on the back of the shrink wrapped corpse. How sweet!!!

One friend recently boasted about the fact that she brought free range because she knew the animals did not suffer and were treated with respect.

When I hinted that maybe their journey to the slaughterhouse and the processes within may be a BIT stressful she gave me an ' are you stupid or what ?' look and said very earnestly

' oh no.. they have their own organic slaughterhouses where they are treated with respect and kindness. '

No amount of explaining that the cows were not led in one by one down a softly lit grassy bank , being stroked and comforted before been 'humanely' and respectfully slaughtered would convince her otherwise.

She chose to end the conversation by advising me to get my facts straight and walking off indignantly.

I have a good friend who spouts the same stuff ... and I usually counter with "The cows are treated with [supposed] respect and kindness...right up until the time they are slaughtered." How on this earth can slaughter, in whatever fashion, be likened to anything humane?

 

[Brandon111]

I like to start with getting an individual to at least acknowledge that every living thing deserves the right to life.We have to get past that hump first.With most folks, it's only about that duration of "life" and how plump it gets.We must be able to see the true value of all life, its place in nature and to percieve that life as having a valid and meaningful purpose.

 

[ledboots]