Random thoughts about Veg*nism, and wotnot.

[Blobbenstein]

I don't think the law will be changed to reduce meat consumption for a long while; you would need a majority of people to vote for that, and even then I'm not sure it would happen.

I think veganism will probably only come about through changes in food production technology.

I still don't get what you mean. Unless you mean that people not buying meat forces the price down enabling people that wouldn't have bought it, to then buy it.

 

[ledboots]

I don't think the law will be changed to reduce meat consumption for a long while; you would need a majority of people to vote for that, and even then I'm not sure it would happen.

I think veganism will probably only come about through changes in food production technology.

I still don't get what you mean. Unless you mean that people not buying meat forces the price down enabling people that wouldn't have bought it, to then buy it.

I cannot see such a law passing in the US.

However, I can foresee a time when animal welfare laws, together with halting government meat subsidies, would make it difficult to profit from animals.

 

[flyingsnail]

I don't think the law will be changed to reduce meat consumption for a long while; you would need a majority of people to vote for that, and even then I'm not sure it would happen.

Probably not, but you could say the same thing about every humans rights achievement over the last few hundred years.

Your not going to go from today to the complete protection of livestock animals overnight but I don't think that implies one should not work towards such things and just boycott products to free their conscious.

I think veganism will probably only come about through changes in food production technology.

Veganism isn't something I understand and as such not some end point for me, but I'm not sure what food technology would have to do with veganism or animal rights/welfare in general. There are already ample alternatives to eating meat and vegetarianism predates, by far, modern food technology. And while veganism does depend on modern food technology (e.g., synthesis of B12) that technology already exists.

Unless you mean that people not buying meat forces the price down enabling people that wouldn't have bought it, to then buy it.

This isn't what I was talking about but it is a factor as well. But I was talking about the current global market for meat, developing countries are increasing their intake of meat and domestic production in these countries is often resource limited so excess supply in developed countries will easily find a home in developing countries.

 

[Blobbenstein]

but I'm not sure what food technology would have to do with veganism or animal rights/welfare in general.

Food technology can replace animal products, like cheese and meats.

I don't think people can really be changed to start eating plant based foods unless they enjoy eating them. So I don't see any way to work towards a vegan world. If I won the lottery I would invest in dairy free cheese, and vegan egg research.

 

[flyingsnail]

Food technology can replace animal products, like cheese and meats.

In a sense, but replacing natural meats and cheese with synthetic versions isn't a prerequisite to a vegetarian or vegan diet, its just an attempt to preserve existing cultural preferences. Change cultural practices and such things don't matter....and this is something you can do today rather than waiting for new food technologies that may or may not exist in the future.

But just because a viable synthetic meat exists doesn't mean people are going to eat it, so you still have to address cultural attitudes. For example, there are already some reasonable fake meat products but the average person isn't rushing out to buy them.

I don't think people can really be changed to start eating plant based foods unless they enjoy eating them.

Yes the food has to be enjoyable but I don't think engineering plant foods to taste like dead animals is a requirement for a delicious dish.

This reminds me of something, the other day I was at whole foods looking at the pizza. On top they had some vegan pizzas and the things looked absolutely disgusting, the fake cheese looked like plastic and the crust was some strange thin brown cracker like thing. I wondered.....why does this have to be so gross? I think focusing on mimicking meat/dairy based foods leads to some really terrible dishes.

 

[Blobbenstein]

Yes the food has to be enjoyable but I don't think engineering plant foods to taste like dead animals is a requirement for a delicious dish.

it is for most people.
I guess you mean meat, but there is egg and dairy too. If eggs in cakes can be replaced, that would be a lot of unhappy chickens that wouldn't be brought into existence.
I don't have a desire to change the eating culture other than replace all the animal ingredients with plant ingredients. People can still have their barbecues of plant based burgers.
I think people like that animals die for their food..I think people enjoy the tradition of killing animals for food...so maybe it would be a big change, culturally...all that stuff about being top of the food chain.

 

[shyvas]

it is for most people.
I guess you mean meat, but there is egg and dairy too. If eggs in cakes can be replaced, that would be a lot of unhappy chickens that wouldn't be brought into existence.
I don't have a desire to change the eating culture other than replace all the animal ingredients with plant ingredients. People can still have their barbecues of plant based burgers.
I think people like that animals die for their food..I think people enjoy the tradition of killing animals for food...so maybe it would be a big change, culturally...all that stuff about being top of the food chain.

They certainly do in France.

 

[flyingsnail]

it is for most people.
I guess you mean meat, but there is egg and dairy too. If eggs in cakes can be replaced, that would be a lot of unhappy chickens that wouldn't be brought into existence.

I don't think most people believe that a dish has to have animal based ingredients to be delicious, in fact, I don't think I've ever heard anybody say such a thing.

Its easy to make cakes without eggs, no need for food technology in that case, but this relates to my point. Trying to formulate plant-based alternatives to common animal based ingredients is only a factor when people refuse to change, there are plenty of absolutely delicious traditional deserts that don't use eggs or dairy......they just may not be the sort of deserts you grew up with. Why is eating the food one grew up with so important?

I don't have a desire to change the eating culture other than replace all the animal ingredients with plant ingredients. People can still have their barbecues of plant based burgers.

I'm not so concerned with all, but would certainly prefer if people replaced the vast majority of animal ingredients with plant ingredients. The question is...how do you achieve that? Considering the majority of animal-based foods don't have reasonable alternatives I think trying to shift the way people prepare and think about food is the most effective thing you can do today. I'd much rather work towards something we know can work rather than hope that some food entrepreneurs create alternatives to animal-based foods.

There are also health issues, focusing on delicious traditional plant-based dishes addresses these issues as well.

 

[Blobbenstein]

Its easy to make cakes without eggs, no need for food technology in that case

I've made vegan cakes, but I think they aren't quite as good(fluffy) as egg containing cakes. Maybe I'm not doing it right. If they can get the technology right, an find a replacement cheaper than eggs, then I'm sure that a lot of cake companies will move to that.

 

[Clueless Git]

it is for most people.
I guess you mean meat, but there is egg and dairy too. If eggs in cakes can be replaced, that would be a lot of unhappy chickens that wouldn't be brought into existence.

I have my minions working on this, just for you, Blobbers ...

'Artificial egg' made from PLANTS backed by Bill Gates set to revolutionize cooking goes on sale at Whole Foods | Mail Online

Beyond Eggs vs. Real Eggs: Is The Fake Stuff Really Better? (PHOTOS)

 

[Tom L.]

I've made vegan cakes, but I think they aren't quite as good(fluffy) as egg containing cakes. Maybe I'm not doing it right. If they can get the technology right, an find a replacement cheaper than eggs, then I'm sure that a lot of cake companies will move to that.

I dunno. There's a vegan bakery in my area, and they do cakes and cupcakes, but although I think they're very good, they're not as fluffy as the cake made with egg I've had. They're... I don't know... sort of "chewier". Personally, I actually prefer their vegan version, but I suppose most people prefer and expect cake to be light in texture.

I tried to make a vegan fruitcake about a year ago but it came out like a bread. Quite good, but not what I'd been trying for.

EDITED TO ADD: Clueless Git's links to egg substitute development were interesting. But as far as eggless mayonnaise goes, I think Vegenaise is every bit as good as Hellman's.... with two cautions: 1) I think Vegenaise tends to separate over time and not hold its texture so well; 2) it's more expensive than real mayo!!!

 

[Tom L.]

I had a thought(well it's an old thought) about veggyism and wondered where to put it, and I thought it was funny that there was no where to talk randomly about veg*n issues.

My (old) thought was that I wonder if some people eat meat because they are afraid of dying. That eating meat forms part of their denial about their fears in this regard.

I suppose some people think that way. For my part, strict vegetarianism is an aspect of affirming my own love of my life: it's strong enough to carry over to the lives of animals I've known and cared about, and then to the animals I don't know.

 

[flyingsnail]

I've made vegan cakes, but I think they aren't quite as good(fluffy) as egg containing cakes. Maybe I'm not doing it right. If they can get the technology right, an find a replacement cheaper than eggs, then I'm sure that a lot of cake companies will move to that.

You should be able to make a fluffy vegan cake but part of the issue here isn't really about desirability but instead familiarity. I'll ask again, what is so important about eating the same types of foods as you grew up with in exactly the same way they were prepared? The sort of cuisine each of us grew up with is a very small fraction of what is out there. But you don't need to abandon everything...just some things. I don't get why some have such a resistance to change, I think part of the issue here is that all the traditional vegetarian cuisine comes from non-western people and people in the west tend to be imperialistic. Trying to get western folks to adopt non-western cultural traditions goes against hundreds of years of imperialism.

In any case, changing the way people think about food is something that can be done today and as a result I think its the best course of action. Another issue is that focusing on heavily processed foods with poor nutritional value conflicts with the growing consensus that people should be primarily eating whole foods. Given the health messages to eat more whole foods, trying to get people to replace natural foods with heavily processed versions of them is going to be a tough message to sale. I think changing the food culture in the west is the only realistic way to promote change.

 

[Blobbenstein]

people just like the food they are used to:

Refugees protest against 'monotonous' Italian food - The Local

What is wrong with foods like lasagne, being veganised? Why do people have to change their food culture?

 

[Blobbenstein]

anyway, you are probably right that people(me included) should eat more whole foods more vegetables, less fat, and we'd all live more productive healthy lives, but I don't see a complete cultural change..Like me, I think people can include a bit more whole foods, but you can take the vegan macaroni cheese from my cold, dead, hands......and probably will...

 

[Clueless Git]

For my part, strict vegetarianism is an aspect of affirming my own love of my life: it's strong enough to carry over to the lives of animals I've known and cared about, and then to the animals I don't know.

What a nice bloke

 

[Clueless Git]

What is wrong with foods like lasagne, being veganised? Why do people have to change their food culture?

Agree.

I think that radical diet change is one of the things that makes transition to veganism hard, too hard sometimes.

For a long time now I've always advised the veg curious to start by veg*nising the things they currently eat.

 

[flyingsnail]

people just like the food they are used to:
What is wrong with foods like lasagne, being veganised? Why do people have to change their food culture?

People do tend to like what they are familiar with.....but when what they're familiar with results in some negative outcome its best to change.

Most of the ingredients in lasagna are plant-based so its something you could, in principle, veganize....but honestly I've yet to make or have a good vegan lasagna. Its the cheese.....without cheese lasagna just isn't the same and by focusing on such foods you will be always reminding people that vegan food is inferior food.

I've given an argument in my lost few posts as to why people should change their food culture. The vast majority of animal based products do not have alternatives that are on par taste and nutrition wise as a result vegan food that uses them will be inferior in both taste and nutritional value. On the other hand there are many delicious traditional vegetarian/vegan dishes.
The poor nutritional value of the products may result in a failure to thrive which is a major problem both for individuals and the imagine of veg*n diets in the western world. For the average person, sadly, meat,dairy and eggs are some of the most nutritious parts of their diet and replacing them with heavily processed foods results in a major reduction in the nutritional value of their diet.

anyway, you are probably right that people(me included) should eat more whole foods more vegetables, less fat, and we'd all live more productive healthy lives, but I don't see a complete cultural change..Like me, I think people can include a bit more whole foods, but you can take the vegan macaroni cheese from my cold, dead, hands......and probably will...

My point is that a vegan food culture that focuses around heavily processed ingredients is incongruent with current health messages and as a result its going to be a tough sale. Another factor is that the meat, dairy, etc industry will exploit the highly processed nature of these products in their marketing.

And, just to be clear, what I'm talking about here is how to get western society to move towards a more plant oriented diet. The current veg*n community has done a very poor job at this and I think, in part, it has to do with the food culture in the veg*n community. When vegetarians/vegans aren't creating mock dishes.....there are often promoting strange dietary practices (raw diets, etc). There aren't many people out there promoting wholesome, delicious and healthy vegetarian food.

While I don't think eating vegan mac-cheese here and there is a big deal, I don't think its the sort of food that should be promoted.

 

[Dedalus]

A metaphor for my opinion on this current conversation:

Diets that usually don't work: No more eating chocolate cake!
Diets that have a better chance of succeeding: Eat this chocolate cake and still lose weight.

I agree - that a broad, overall cultural move towards a plant-based diet of whole, natural foods is the ultimate scenario - but I don't believe for one second that it is the most realistic one. You are talking about reversing habits that are deeply ingrained in humanity. We should be striving for a culture of tolerance, peace and understanding with one another (something else we are doing a very poor job of). I don't see any chance of that happening, even though as a society, most of us believe that is best.

If meat eaters can be convinced (and I think they can, to further Blobby's point on food technology) to eat veganized whatever: steak, sausage, chicken, mac and cheese etc - then the animals win.

 

[flyingsnail]

You are talking about reversing habits that are deeply ingrained in humanity.

While some aspects of our food culture date back thousands of years much of what we eat today is relatively new. The food industry has actively changed western food culture over the last 50 years.

I don't think eating meat is a matter of humanity just particular cultures.

If meat eaters can be convinced (and I think they can, to further Blobby's point on food technology) to eat veganized whatever: steak, sausage, chicken, mac and cheese etc - then the animals win.

Sure but the problem is that for the vast majority of animal-based products there are no good substitutes so we are talking about, at best, some distant point in the future. I also don't think convincing people to eat highly processed meat, dairy, etc alternatives is going to be easy.